On Earth, among the surest indications of sunspot cycles are

[RonPurewal]

In E "Earth of sunspot cycles " sounds as if Earth belongs to sunspot cycles :(

yeah, sure... but, how else would you write it?

you've got 2 modifiers that both describe "indications": namely, "on earth" and "of sunspot cycles".
you have to put these in some order -- so, one of them will end up next to "indications", and the other one won't.

if you say indications of sunspot cycles on earth, then that looks as though sunspot cycles are happening on earth. not good.
if you say indications on earth of sunspot cycles, then there is only one possible meaning. good. done.

[mcmebk]

however, in this problem, i don't totally understand what is the function of as in the sentence"as seen in the rings visible in the cross sections of their trunks"
so please clarify me.

as usual, i have no idea what you would call this in terms of grammar terminology. but, basically, the meaning here is that you can see evidence of the thing, but not the thing itself. i.e., in this case, you obviously can't literally see a rate by looking at tree rings, but you can see stuff from which the rate can be determined, or, in other words, stuff that's related to the rate.
here's another example:
the reaction will produce brown smoke, as described in the laboratory manual.
this means that the lab manual says "hey, there's gonna be smoke" -- i.e., the lab manual talks [i]about the smoke -- but doesn't describe the smoke itself.
if the lab manual actually gives a physical description of the smoke, then you can write "...the smoke described in the lab manual".

sorry i can't help you with grammar terms, but i pretty much don't know any of those unless i can google them, and this isn't really something that is google-able.

in this kind of construction--->COMMA +verbED
i remember that the verbED should always be regarded as a past participle and used to modify the noun that close to it in the previous clause(so it is always a noun modifier)

yes on the noun modifier part; no on the "closest noun" part.
if you have a comma in front of that participle, then it will usually modify the subject of the clause, not the closest noun.
for instance:
* Tanya collapsed onto the couch, exhausted from a 14-hour work shift
(here, "exhausted" modifies the subject "Tanya")

if you want to modify the closest noun, then you are normally going to ditch the comma:
[i]in the attic, i found an old box inlaid with precious stones.[/]
(here, "inlaid" modifies "box")

Hi Ron

I find your explanation in an earlier post on this question is arguable.

You said that the problem with C is that "as seen in the rings..." implies that sunspot cycles are seen...however, according to what you wrote here, the "as seen" part does not really directly modify the preceding noun itself, but some kind of "stuff" that is related to the noun.

In your example, the reaction will produce brown smoke, as described in the laboratory manual. It is not the smoke that was described, but the whole phenomenon. Similarly, in a sentence "Ron is a marvelous instructor, as evidenced in numerous posts he wrote" (This is a sentence wrote by Tim), in this example, it is not really the "instructor" that is evidenced, but the whole clause. Applying the same principle in this question, I think what is seen is actually the whole fact/statement "the rate at which trees grow is believed to be among the surest indications of sunspot cycles".

I apologize for being captious if I am, but I think it is important for me to understand how this structure "AS SEEN" works in other questions.

Thank you in advance.

[thanghnvn]

all the phrases in writen english must be recognized in grammar books. If the phrase is not recognized, the phrase is wrong.

every grammar rules on sc is still in grammar books.

I ponder "as seen..." a lot and after revewing grammar books I find out the point.

preposition+participle 1

in learning gmat, I feel happy

conjuction+ participle 2

though tired, I continue to learn gmat.

I will not talk about the role of the phrase above. the role is that they modify the whole main clause and must refer to the subject and so must be logic place relative to the subject. some grammar books said that it is both adverbial and adjectival. the naming them is not important. we need to understand their role.

"as seen..."

"as seen..." can not modify the whole clause . it must modify only the "rate of growth" . it is totally a adjectival. because "as seen..." can not modify the whole clause, "as" can not be a conjuction.

we can not say

I have a nice pen as it is seen on the table

"as" must be a preposition

if "as seen..." is adjectival, it is in which pattern in the grammar books.

I find out

I have a nice pen as the pen which is seen on the table.

the above pattern is the pattern in which " as seen" is in. The ellipsis cover the formal pattern in the grammar book

the pen in capacity of the pen on the table is mine

the pen in capacity of the pen which is described by you is mine.

I see the above sentence is not very good. But above sentence is the only good pattern we have now. So I think the pattern above is correct and is what "as seen..." is in

experts, pls. explain the structure "as seen..." . this is what we want to know.

we should learn the new thing from og. what should we learn here from " as seen..."

[RonPurewal]

thanghnvn, I don't understand what you are asking.
In fact, I can't tell for sure whether you are asking a question at all, vs. just commenting. Please clarify, thanks.

[thanghnvn]

On Earth, among the surest indications of sunspot cycles are believed to be the rate that trees grow, as seen in the rings visible in the cross sections of their trunks.


A. On Earth, among the surest indications of sunspot cycles are believed to be the rate that trees grow
B. On Earth, among the surest indications of sunspot cycles are, it is believed, the rate of tree growth
C. On Earth, the rate at which trees grow is believed to be among the surest indications of sunspot cycles
D. Among the surest indications on Earth of sunspot cycles, believed to be the tree growth rate
E. Among the surest indications on Earth of sunspot cycles is believed to be the rate at which trees grow


In this question how do I decide between A/E. I understand that Rate That is not GREAT but even surest indications on Earth of sunspot ( This means that a different earth exists that belongs to Sunspot cycles).

The other split is IS/ARE if this is a Inverted Subject-verb combo. How do I spot this inversion?

I agree B is best but

what is grammatical name of the phrase "as seen..." ?
what is "as " here? "as " is conjuction or a preposition? pls explain.

I think "as" must be a conjuction and, so, means " in the same way as". used in this way , " as" need a clause to make comparision. "as seen..." can not modify a noun alone.

pls, explain the use of " as seen..."

[RonPurewal]

what is grammatical name of the phrase "as seen..." ?
what is "as " here? "as " is conjuction or a preposition? pls explain.

I don't know what it's called -- I don't know any formal grammar terms, other than the most basic ones (subject, verb, adjective, etc.)
Perhaps one of our other moderators would know; I could ask.

More importantly, there's no value in knowing the terminology. When you see a construction, you should know how it works -- WITHOUT having to name it. If you have to take that detour every time, you aren't going to be able to figure these things out fast enough.

[thanghnvn]

" as seen..." in B must modifies a clause and we have no logic clause for " as seen..." in choice B.

the following is correct

as seen in the past, the tree now is nice.

and this sentence means:

as the tree is seen to be nice in the past, the tree now is nice

we can not find a similar meaning in choice B.

Please,help

[RonPurewal]

" as seen..." in B must modifies a clause and we have no logic clause for " as seen..." in choice B.

the following is correct

as seen in the past, the tree now is nice.

and this sentence means:

as the tree is seen to be nice in the past, the tree now is nice

we can not find a similar meaning in choice B.

Please,help

Don't try to "reconstruct" words that aren't there. That's why constructions like this one exist -- because you usually can't write the "full" version out.

From this problem, you can learn that "as seen in..." can describe the thing (noun) that comes before it. Here, that's "the rate at which trees grow".
There's no reason to complicate the issue further.

[thanghnvn]

we try to avoid the grammar terms to explain the logicness of a sentence. However, it is the grammar terms that help us understand the role of each entity in the sentence and realize the logicness/non-loginess of the sentence. So, in short, we have to use grammar terms.

the beauty and excellence of gmat sensentence are clear to us. But that dose not meant we ignore some problems which rarely happen in og questions. in justifying the use of " as seen..." phrase, we have to admit that there is something not perfect somewhere.

[RonPurewal]

So, in short, we have to use grammar terms.

Except... well, no, really, we don't.
If what you're saying here were true, I wouldn't be able to solve sentence correction problems, because I don't know and can't remember any grammar terms beyond the basics (subject, verb, adjective, and so on).

the beauty and excellence of gmat sensentence are clear to us.

There are some sentences that are "elegant" or "beautiful" or whatever.
There are also SC problems on which the correct answers are weird or awkward ... but they're the choices that aren't wrong.

[RonPurewal]

in justifying the use of " as seen..." phrase, we have to admit that there is something not perfect somewhere.

This is only true if you think "perfect" means "conforming absolutely to a system of rules".
If that's your definition of "perfect", then, yes, human languages are going to be imperfect. Remember that languages have to be able to express every single thought that a person ever might want to write!
To accomplish that job, you're going to need plenty of structures that are "special cases" or exceptions to the usual patterns.

If you're looking at something that is a special case -- i.e., something that, for the most part, doesn't work like the rest of the language -- then there's really not much point in sticking a label on it. It's an exceptional case. Learn it, remember it, and move on.

[Suapplle]

however, in this problem, i don't totally understand what is the function of as in the sentence"as seen in the rings visible in the cross sections of their trunks"
so please clarify me.

as usual, i have no idea what you would call this in terms of grammar terminology. but, basically, the meaning here is that you can see evidence of the thing, but not the thing itself. i.e., in this case, you obviously can't literally see a rate by looking at tree rings, but you can see stuff from which the rate can be determined, or, in other words, stuff that's related to the rate.
here's another example:
the reaction will produce brown smoke, as described in the laboratory manual.
this means that the lab manual says "hey, there's gonna be smoke" -- i.e., the lab manual talks [i]about the smoke -- but doesn't describe the smoke itself.
if the lab manual actually gives a physical description of the smoke, then you can write "...the smoke described in the lab manual".

sorry i can't help you with grammar terms, but i pretty much don't know any of those unless i can google them, and this isn't really something that is google-able.

in this kind of construction--->COMMA +verbED
i remember that the verbED should always be regarded as a past participle and used to modify the noun that close to it in the previous clause(so it is always a noun modifier)

yes on the noun modifier part; no on the "closest noun" part.
if you have a comma in front of that participle, then it will usually modify the subject of the clause, not the closest noun.
for instance:
* Tanya collapsed onto the couch, exhausted from a 14-hour work shift
(here, "exhausted" modifies the subject "Tanya")

if you want to modify the closest noun, then you are normally going to ditch the comma:
[i]in the attic, i found an old box inlaid with precious stones.[/]
(here, "inlaid" modifies "box")

Hi,Ron,I am still confused about "comma+ as seen in the rings bla bla".
in this sentence,why "comma+ as seen in the rings bla bla" modify the closet noun not the entire preceding clause?please shed light on,thanks a lot!

[RonPurewal]

in this sentence,why "comma+ as seen in the rings bla bla" modify the closet noun not the entire preceding clause?please shed light on,thanks a lot!

That construction describes "the rate at which trees grow".
You are correct that "rate" is a noun, but note that "rate" is distant from the comma. (You would not be able to use something that's committed to modifying nouns -- such as "which" -- to describe this phrase.)

[calm.jing]

yes on the noun modifier part; no on the "closest noun" part.
if you have a comma in front of that participle, then it will usually modify the subject of the clause, not the closest noun.
for instance:
* Tanya collapsed onto the couch, exhausted from a 14-hour work shift
(here, "exhausted" modifies the subject "Tanya")

if you want to modify the closest noun, then you are normally going to ditch the comma:
[i]in the attic, i found an old box inlaid with precious stones.
(here, "inlaid" modifies "box")

Hi Ron!
I am a little confused here. I thought you said in other posts that "SVO, verb-ed" is normally taken to modify the closest noun" . Is it different in the above example because that sentence does not actually have an object for the verb?

Thank you!

[RonPurewal]

Yeah -- actually, "comma + __ed" can do both of those things.

* Subject (+ action):
Tanya collapsed onto the couch, exhausted from a 14-hour work shift.

* Nearest noun:
John showed me his collection of vinyl records, purchased mostly while vinyl was still the predominant medium for rock albums.

As long as common sense can distinguish which of the two is the intended noun, you're good.

Thanks.