Besides adding complementary flavors

[rahul9395]

Ron,

I know,in SC, we must find the best choice. but option A has error.

Is this sentence an exception to rules of "These"

[mschwrtz]

If I had come a little earlier to this question, I too would have doubted that it was real GMAT question, though it doesn't in fact violate any rule of SWE.

"These," "those," "that" and "this" can be used as either pronouns or adjectives. No rule of Standard Written English (SWE) categorically prohibits using such demonstrative pronouns as, well pronouns, though such usage is much more common in speech than in writing, formal or informal.

The GMAT doesn't (usually) allow such usage in OAs. Usually. You will much more likely see, e.g., "these endorphins" (demonstrative adjective) than simply "these" (demonstrative pronoun).

Our SC Guide reflects the usage we had observed on the GMAT, but this question will give us cause to reflect.

Also, I take it that everyone balked at this OA because the antecedent for "these" was hard to track down. Pronoun ambiguity doesn't bear much weight on the GMAT, except when you're asked to choose between an pronoun and a noun, so I'm untroubled that the pronoun/antecedent relationship in the OA is a little tough to parse.

But then, I have the luxury of coming in after the storm has passed.

[gs.abhinav]

mschwrtz. am reviving a really old post because I came across this question too and I marked option B thinking that the comparison between "pain relief" and "morphine" is abstract.

Also, the Manhattan SC Guide clearly asks you to avoid using demonstrative pronouns to refer to nouns. You have stated in your post that:

Our SC Guide reflects the usage we had observed on the GMAT, but this question will give us cause to reflect.

What is your latest position on this issue? Can you please clarify this immediately?

Thanks.

[RonPurewal]

mschwrtz. am reviving a really old post because I came across this question too and I marked option B thinking that the comparison between "pain relief" and "morphine" is abstract.

"pain relief vs. morphine" is not a valid comparison. one is an effect; the other is a cause.

if you have to "get really abstract" to make a comparison work, then the comparison is almost certainly wrong -- comparisons need to be as direct as possible.

Also, the Manhattan SC Guide clearly asks you to avoid using demonstrative pronouns to refer to nouns. You have stated in your post that:

Our SC Guide reflects the usage we had observed on the GMAT, but this question will give us cause to reflect.

What is your latest position on this issue? Can you please clarify this immediately?

Thanks.

"immediately" -- this is rather rude, and it also won't speed up our responses (we answer these posts in order, from oldest to newest). please be patient.

this problem is the only exception we have ever seen to this rule, so we're probably going to leave the general principle in the guide.
i.e., if a rule is correct 99% of the time, then it's a pretty good rule -- the other 1% is an acceptable sacrifice, especially if understanding that 1% would make the other 99% less clear.

if we encounter more exceptions, of course, we will do some serious re-thinking of the issue.

[eggpain24]

mschwrtz. am reviving a really old post because I came across this question too and I marked option B thinking that the comparison between "pain relief" and "morphine" is abstract.

"pain relief vs. morphine" is not a valid comparison. one is an effect; the other is a cause.

if you have to "get really abstract" to make a comparison work, then the comparison is almost certainly wrong -- comparisons need to be as direct as possible.

Also, the Manhattan SC Guide clearly asks you to avoid using demonstrative pronouns to refer to nouns. You have stated in your post that:

Our SC Guide reflects the usage we had observed on the GMAT, but this question will give us cause to reflect.

What is your latest position on this issue? Can you please clarify this immediately?

Thanks.

"immediately" -- this is rather rude, and it also won't speed up our responses (we answer these posts in order, from oldest to newest). please be patient.

this problem is the only exception we have ever seen to this rule, so we're probably going to leave the general principle in the guide.
i.e., if a rule is correct 99% of the time, then it's a pretty good rule -- the other 1% is an acceptable sacrifice, especially if understanding that 1% would make the other 99% less clear.

if we encounter more exceptions, of course, we will do some serious re-thinking of the issue.

HI，Ron

in choice C，I just want to ask the antecedent of “they”，what is your perspective？

I think that the main subject，which is a form of “ X and Y” （compound noun joint by “and”） should serve as only one plural noun.

therefore, can "they" refer to only to "hot sauces" or "exercise"?(my answer is surely negative~)

Last but not least, I know pronoun issue is tricky and should have been left alone until the last resort. Haha!

[YM959]

Hi Ron,


In B, does the usage of "they" is correct?
I think "they" represents the "hot sauces" not the "endorphins", and thus "they" do not "have a pain-relieving effect".

Thanks!

[RonPurewal]

The meaning of "they" is perfectly clear from context in that answer choice--and it's a plural noun, as required--so "they" is fine.

[thanghnvn]

The answer is A right? you are right- "like" is used incorrectly in B.

Can you elaborate your question?

"like" in b is the lesion gmat teaches us . this use of "like" at the end of the sentence is correct.

"these" never exist in gmat sc. hard and fast rule ,

[sabrinax656]

Dear Gurus:

I find in OG 2016, there is another sentence using those demonstrative pronoun to stand for a noun.

At first, XXXX travel from east to west, because that is the direction of the prevailing winds in the tropics, but the...

Can any expert help to shed any light on this sentence? it seems to me a little bit weird to use that here.

sab

[RonPurewal]

that's interesting. if indeed that's the case, then we'll have to revise our hard-line approach to 'that' as a pronoun. (i don't have OG2016 yet, so i can't see the problem.)

on the other hand, i'm willing to bet $$$ that the other choices can be eliminated for MUCH more fundamental/straightforward reasons.
yes?

[sabrinax656]

that's interesting. if indeed that's the case, then we'll have to revise our hard-line approach to 'that' as a pronoun. (i don't have OG2016 yet, so i can't see the problem.)

on the other hand, i'm willing to bet $$$ that the other choices can be eliminated for MUCH more fundamental/straightforward reasons.
yes?

Ron, my expert:

This is No 2. question in OG 2016 SC sample question section. I cannot post the whole question for the sake of the forum policy.
And yes, there are several meaning or redundant issues in other options. So we have to chose this seemingly not so right answer.

My point is that it seems OG again accept those demonstrative pronoun as a noun-like noun.

BR
Sab

[tim]

They may be taking "east to west" to be the antecedent, but that seems a little weird. We'll take a closer look when we get our copies of the OG2016.

[RonPurewal]

And yes, there are several meaning or redundant issues in other options. So we have to chose this seemingly not so right answer.

My point is that it seems OG again accept those demonstrative pronoun as a noun-like noun.

BR
Sab

the pink thing is BY FAR the most important thing in this discussion. if you see 'strange' constructions in SC, they are there to distract you! look for fundamental errors elsewhere!