Q9

[mineale1975]

I may have been looking at this too long, or am missing something. I can not get this one figured out. What am I missing?

Of course I see what I was missing the second I post this.

[mineale1975]

Ok, I was wrong, I still can't get it.

Any help?

I should hang it up for the night.

[dfay91]

The answer is D), because if O were scheduled on both Thursday and Friday, then R's first day could not be until Saturday. Since R must be scheduled twice, but cannot be scheduled twice in one day, O cannot be scheduled for the two days before the last day (i.e. Saturday).

__ __ __ __
__ __ __ __
__ O O R
W Th F S

As you can see, it leaves no room for the second R.

[beachbabee17]

The first reply is inaccurate. R could also occur on Friday (the rule states only that the first O must be a day+ before R, not that both must be. But even in that case, you would not be able to complete the example and satisfy the Thursday=Sunday, once rule.

[steves]

I understand the answer--but not necessarily how to get to the answer. Using Matt's diagram, I am able to find it through a modified trial and error by manipulating frames close to answers (A) through (E). This makes the process very similar to Q7, where they give us this frame in the set-up. This took a while, but was doable

However, without realizing from Q7 that this game needs to be framed--and I didn't--I wasn't sure how to approach Q8-10 except by complete trial and error, which took way too long.

Does this game depend on figuring out in the big pause or from Q7 that LSAT wants us to frame it--or is there another realistic way to solve it? Also, would the idea to frame it come during the big pause due to the lack of useful inferences? One reason I did not frame it was that I did not pick up on the Thursday=Saturday rule as being a good candidate to frame.

[ohthatpatrick]

Let me start by saying there's nothing really wrong with "plug and chug", as long as you've practiced that mode and are efficient with it.

A lot of times in Games you can kick yourself later for not having deduced something or framed something or seen the obvious truth behind some answer ... but in the heat of battle a lot of ordinarily smart thinking sometimes goes out the window.

So Plug and Chug is my immediate go to, if I'm otherwise spinning my wheels.

To be efficient, you need to be able to write scenarios compactly (meaning they don't need to look as pretty as your master diagram), and you need control over the 3 or so rules.

Here, I know I have to use two G's, two R's, two O's.

Gotta have O1 - R1, a GR chunk, and someone who goes Thu/Sat.

I would start Q9 by looking for eliminations from previous work (if you didn't do frames, you probably didn't feel too in command of the game once you went to the questions, so it would have been wise to tackle the two "If" questions first).

Q7 gives us this work:
G | O | GR | OR

Q11 gives us this work:
G | O | R | GRO
or
GO | R | O | GR

So when we get to Q9, we start by looking for where we've already seen O go.

That kills off (C) and (E). So, if we're doing plug and chug, we should only need to do it on up to two choices (if the first two we try are possible, we'll know the remaining choice is impossible).

The way this would go down without upfront framing but also without plug and chug is just to see that this question is asking about O, and ask yourself, "What rules pertain to O?"

The only one is that R1 comes after O1. So as I look at these answers, I'd have to think about "what does this tell me about R?"

(A), (B), and (C) all mean that the two R's could be Thu/Fri, Thu/Sat, or Fri/Sat.

(D) and (E) mean that the two R's must be Fri/Sat. Since they are more limiting, it makes more sense to consider them.

Once I know O and R, I just care about G. For both (D) and (E), one G has to be in Wed, because it's empty otherwise. The other G has to buddy up with R in Fri or Sat.

Great ... so ....

If we don't write this stuff out, it's hard to "see" what we're missing ... the Thu/Sat rule.

So the correct answer tests a third level inference, meaning you have to make at least two inferences before you would see that we're breaking a rule. And it's very easy to not "see" why (D) breaks unless you actually write it out and test it against the rules.

So embrace the plug and chug and jump into it quickly and confidently (after you've eliminated any answers you can from previous work and after you've taken a first pass through the answer choices to see if anything jumps out at you).

I'm perfectly happy/willing to get this question by simply writing this on my page:
(A) O | GRO | R | G
(B) O | GR | O | GR
(C) O | GR | R | GO
(D) G | O | OR | R (other G has to go in Fri/Sat, so I don't have a Thu/Sat ... done)

The important skill I'm using for A/B/C is understanding that I'm only trying to bust out a could be true scenario. I made a bunch of arbitrary decisions in completing my scenarios for A/B/C. This is "could be true"-brain. I'm just trying to slot stuff in quickly by immediately considering ways to comply with the rules.

Hope this helps.

[steves]

Thanks, Patrick! Your reply is too awesome to just hit the Thanks button. Using your strategies, I went back and was able to re-do Q8, 9, and 10 a lot faster. I still need to get faster at the plug & chug--which should come with more practice--but these individual questions became a lot less frightening once prior work and inferences reduced the number of necessary plug & chugs down from 4 to only 1 or 2 for each question.

BTW - for Q9, it looks like the prior work from Q7 & 11 kills off (B) and (E) rather than (C) and (E) -- in case a future student tries to follow this forum trail. Thanks again!

Steve

[JenniferK632]

You mentioned framing here. I went back and tried to frame based on O's first audition. Which framing restriction did you use?

Let me start by saying there's nothing really wrong with "plug and chug", as long as you've practiced that mode and are efficient with it.

A lot of times in Games you can kick yourself later for not having deduced something or framed something or seen the obvious truth behind some answer ... but in the heat of battle a lot of ordinarily smart thinking sometimes goes out the window.

So Plug and Chug is my immediate go to, if I'm otherwise spinning my wheels.

To be efficient, you need to be able to write scenarios compactly (meaning they don't need to look as pretty as your master diagram), and you need control over the 3 or so rules.

Here, I know I have to use two G's, two R's, two O's.

Gotta have O1 - R1, a GR chunk, and someone who goes Thu/Sat.

I would start Q9 by looking for eliminations from previous work (if you didn't do frames, you probably didn't feel too in command of the game once you went to the questions, so it would have been wise to tackle the two "If" questions first).

Q7 gives us this work:
G | O | GR | OR

Q11 gives us this work:
G | O | R | GRO
or
GO | R | O | GR

So when we get to Q9, we start by looking for where we've already seen O go.

That kills off (C) and (E). So, if we're doing plug and chug, we should only need to do it on up to two choices (if the first two we try are possible, we'll know the remaining choice is impossible).

The way this would go down without upfront framing but also without plug and chug is just to see that this question is asking about O, and ask yourself, "What rules pertain to O?"

The only one is that R1 comes after O1. So as I look at these answers, I'd have to think about "what does this tell me about R?"

(A), (B), and (C) all mean that the two R's could be Thu/Fri, Thu/Sat, or Fri/Sat.

(D) and (E) mean that the two R's must be Fri/Sat. Since they are more limiting, it makes more sense to consider them.

Once I know O and R, I just care about G. For both (D) and (E), one G has to be in Wed, because it's empty otherwise. The other G has to buddy up with R in Fri or Sat.

Great ... so ....

If we don't write this stuff out, it's hard to "see" what we're missing ... the Thu/Sat rule.

So the correct answer tests a third level inference, meaning you have to make at least two inferences before you would see that we're breaking a rule. And it's very easy to not "see" why (D) breaks unless you actually write it out and test it against the rules.

So embrace the plug and chug and jump into it quickly and confidently (after you've eliminated any answers you can from previous work and after you've taken a first pass through the answer choices to see if anything jumps out at you).

I'm perfectly happy/willing to get this question by simply writing this on my page:
(A) O | GRO | R | G
(B) O | GR | O | GR
(C) O | GR | R | GO
(D) G | O | OR | R (other G has to go in Fri/Sat, so I don't have a Thu/Sat ... done)

The important skill I'm using for A/B/C is understanding that I'm only trying to bust out a could be true scenario. I made a bunch of arbitrary decisions in completing my scenarios for A/B/C. This is "could be true"-brain. I'm just trying to slot stuff in quickly by immediately considering ways to comply with the rules.

Hope this helps.

[smiller]

You mentioned framing here. I went back and tried to frame based on O's first audition. Which framing restriction did you use?

There are three possible positions for the GR chunk (at least one day with both G and R). Since O's first audition must be before R's first, we can't have GR on Wednesday. That leaves Thursday, Friday, and Saturday as possible positions. We can frame based on that.