Q24 - In response to several bacterial

[ManhattanPrepLSAT1]

I can tell that you've been working hard at understanding the argument core on logical reasoning in general.

You have a perfectly reasoned counter to answer choice (E) if it stated

Apple Juice that undergoes intensive pasteurization contains less bacteria than McElligott's apple juice.

The conclusion is about the likelihood of containing bacteria - not the amount of bacteria contained.

We do know that intensive pasteurization eliminates bacteria more effectively than does any other method. (key word = eliminates)

Thus, since McElligott's apple juice is not intensive pasteurized it is not using the most effective method for eliminating bacteria and is therefore more likely to have bacteria present than apple juice that uses the most effective method - answer choice (E).

(A) is out of scope. The statements indicate nothing of the amount of bacteria contained in either the apple or citrus juices at McElligott's.
(B) is not known. We do know that McElligott's does not use the most effective method of eliminating bacteria, but we cannot compare the levels of bacteria between it's apple and citrus juices.
(C) is an issue of degree. We know about intensive pasteurization and it's affect on flavor, we have not been given information on other forms of pasteurization and their effects on flavor.
(D) is an issue of degree. We know that intensive pasteurization destroys flavor, but we do not know that it's the method most likely to destroy flavor. There could be some other method of pasteurization not discussed that destroys flavor more than intensive pasteurization.
(E) is correct for the reasons above.


#officialexplanation

[bradleygirard]

Continuing the fun of working through prep test 52, I would love a bit of help explaining this one. I was able to get it correctly not by picking the right answer, but by knocking off the wrong answers. A good strategy in a pinch, but not what I would like to rely on come test day. The question I have is in regards to the correct answer (e). Perhaps it is from doing so many of these sections, but my first instinct is to jump to hypotheticals.

So the stem apparently supports the claim that Apple juice that undergoes intensive pasteurization is less likely than mcelliots to contain bacteria. For me this is a bit too large of a logical leap without there being any quantifying facts about either 1. exactly how much bacteria in % each process gets rid of, or 2. how comparable mcelliots apple juice is to other apple juices in terms of bacteria from the get go.
Suppose that company A also produces apple juice. Now company A gets their apple juice from Monsanto and it is just chock full of bacteria, I'm talking toxic stuff. They would of course go for the intense pasteurization, lowering the bacteria count substantially, say 90%.
Mcelliots on the other hand is a small family run organic apple orchard, and yeah they get some bacteria, but very very minimal amounts. They decide only to flash pasteurize, because hey, the amount of bacteria is so small, there is no need to go intense, and flash pasteurizing removes 50% of the bacteria.
This isn't really a far out scenario at all, this sort of thing actually happens all the time in food production.
Imagine that company A's apple juice has 200ppm bacteria before pasteurization and mcelliots only has 10ppm. After each is done with their respective pasteurizing company A's juice has 20ppm whereas mcelliots has 5ppm. It absolutely does not follow unless the stem gives us more information. Can anyone help? chime in? Thanks.

[bradleygirard]

Well I am indeed trying to not just understand why a particular question is right or wrong, but the structure in general and you guys have been a huge help, so thanks.
Now I don't want to seem combative, but I believe that without the quantifying statement about either % or how the apple juice differs from the beginning, it is still a logical leap. Isn't it perfectly within the realm of possibility that all of the other apple juice starts off with tons and tons of bacteria? Sure the intensive pasteurization may eliminate bacteria more thoroughly but if we don't know the starting point of each apple juice how are we to know whether or not it is more likely? Here is another analogy that may help my argument;
I have two methods of purifying water, boiling and tablet Z. tablet Z kills bacteria more effectively. This bottle of water was boiled, so we can say that it is likely to have bacteria than this water that has been treated with tablet Z. Seems reasonable enough, right? But what if the water that was treated with tablet Z came from the sewer, and the other had just been triple distilled?
For the answer to actually work, we would need to know that the water samples were comparable, or (and as you rightly point out the key word is eliminates) that there are no differing degrees of elimination. Does that make sense? I get the very clear impression that with the use of 'more effective at eliminating' that there are indeed differing degrees of elimination.
Frustrating to say the least, as this is the first answer I have come across that I cannot seem to justify. Even with careful thought. Thank you again for all of your help and of course for your thoughtful reply.

[ManhattanPrepLSAT1]

Honestly, I can see your point. Without knowing whether McElligott's apple juice is naturally low in bacteria, we could not prove answer choice (E) completely.

However, there's no reason to assume that the level of bacteria in McElligott's apple juice is significantly different from apple juices made elsewhere.

As a final thought... I tend to view the following two question stems differently.

1. Which one of the following can be inferred?
2. Which one of the following is most supported?

I hold a stricter degree of absolutism for the first question stem, and grant the argument a bit more flexibility in the latter.

I hope this helps, and I think it's good to call 'em as you see 'em! So don't worry too much about being labeled as combative

[jamiejames]

Honestly, I can see your point. Without knowing whether McElligott's apple juice is naturally low in bacteria, we could not prove answer choice (E) completely.

However, there's no reason to assume that the level of bacteria in McElligott's apple juice is significantly different from apple juices made elsewhere.

As a final thought... I tend to view the following two question stems differently.

1. Which one of the following can be inferred?
2. Which one of the following is most supported?

I hold a stricter degree of absolutism for the first question stem, and grant the argument a bit more flexibility in the latter.

I hope this helps, and I think it's good to call 'em as you see 'em! So don't worry too much about being labeled as combative

this is definitely where I end up loosing my points, it the amount of flexibility I give allow in my answer choices when coming up against which can be inferred, versus most supported. Thank you for clearing that up though, I will from now on be a tiny bit more lax on my strengthening and more stringent in my inference questions.

[boy5237]

I guess I could see how other answer choices can be eliminated due to the following reasons:

A) Other companies? Out of scope
B) Even though the method is most effective, perhaps apple juice could still have some while citrus has none
C) It lacks the word "intensive"
D) The claim itself is too broad.
E) I guess a correct answer

LSAT is a literal test and I don't like way E is worded. Ok, C would be an answer if it didn't lack the word "intensive;" after all, intensive pasteurization would eliminate the flavor of any juice.

However, E seems like it requires an additional assumption: just by looking at the answer choice itself, it is comparing intensively pasteurized apple juice vs McE's apple juice.

Well, I guess it is sorta "implying" that the McE's juice is not pasteurized, but how do we know that in McE's apple juice in E isn't pasteurized?

[patrice.antoine]

Bump!

Is not the sentence "eliminates bacteria more effectively than does any other method" similar to "the most effective" ?

This was my reasoning for choosing this AC. I think I see my error in implying "more than any" to mean "most", but a further explanation would be appreciated!

[ManhattanPrepLSAT1]

Is not the sentence "eliminates bacteria more effectively than does any other method" similar to "the most effective" ?

You're discussing answer choice (D), right? Sure... I see the part about most effective method for eliminating bacteria. But I don't see the part about most likely to destroy flavor. Goes too far beyond what can be supported in the stimulus.

[phoebster21]

I can tell that you've been working hard at understanding the argument core on logical reasoning in general.

You have a perfectly reasoned counter to answer choice (E) if it stated

Apple Juice that undergoes intensive pasteurization contains less bacteria than McElligott's apple juice.

The conclusion is about the likelihood of containing bacteria - not the amount of bacteria contained.

We do know that intensive pasteurization eliminates bacteria more effectively than does any other method. (key word = eliminates)

Thus, since McElligott's apple juice is not intensive pasteurized it is not using the most effective method for eliminating bacteria and is therefore more likely to have bacteria present than apple juice that uses the most effective method - answer choice (E).

(A) is out of scope. The statements indicate nothing of the amount of bacteria contained in either the apple or citrus juices at McElligott's.
(B) is not known. We do know that McElligott's does not use the most effective method of eliminating bacteria, but we cannot compare the levels of bacteria between it's apple and citrus juices.
(C) is an issue of degree. We know about intensive pasteurization and it's affect on flavor, we have not been given information on other forms of pasteurization and their effects on flavor.
(D) is an issue of degree. We know that intensive pasteurization destroys flavor, but we do not know that it's the method most likely to destroy flavor. There could be some other method of pasteurization not discussed that destroys flavor more than intensive pasteurization.
(E) is correct for the reasons above.

WOULD C, if it stated, "McE's citrus juices are more likely to retain more of the original flavor than does any intensively pasteurized juice" be supported by the stimulus?