Q21 - The Iliad and the Odyssey

[giladedelman]

Thanks for the question!

The author concludes that the Iliad and the Odyssey were not the work of the same poet because they differ greatly in tone, vocabulary, and other details. The assumption is pretty clear: if two works differ greatly in these respects, they weren't written by the same person.

(C) is correct because it weakens the argument by attacking the assumption through a specific counterexample. If some works known to be by the same author are as different, in the same ways, as the Iliad and the Odyssey are from each other, then this definitely undermines the assumption that if two works are different in those ways, they're not by the same author.

Now, you're right to be skeptical of the word "modern" here. I'm glad you're focusing on the details. And, indeed, I think this would be a better answer if it talked about ancient works. But let's see if it's the best answer by trying to eliminate the others.

(A) is out of scope. This doesn't tell us anything about whether the Iliad and the Odyssey are by the same poet.

(B) is incorrect because minor errors of this sort wouldn't account for the differences the argument cites.

(D) is incorrect. We're told that the two poems differ greatly in certain respects; that's a fact as far as we're concerned, and it's the fact on which the conclusion is based. The argument doesn't need to assume that they're completely internally consistent in those respects. The question is, does the fact that they're different from each other mean they don't have the same author?

(E) would actually strengthen the argument by suggesting that the poems have multiple authors.

Does that clear this one up for you?


#officialexplanation

[netkorea06]

I am having a hard time understanding why (c) is the answer. Just because same modern writer's works have different styles and tones doesn't mean it can undermine the argument about the ancient times's works. I chose (d) as an answer.

[mrudula_2005]

The assumption is pretty clear: if two works differ greatly in these respects, they weren't written by the same person.

(C) is correct because it weakens the argument by attacking the assumption through a specific counterexample.

(E) would actually strengthen the argument by suggesting that the poems have multiple authors.

To me, (D) also weakens the argument by attacking the assumption through a specific counterexample: it shows that a work that differs greatly in these respects WAS written by the same person - that just because there are differences in this respect, does not mean that a work does not have one author.

Also, I feel like (E) would weaken the argument as well because having other poets involved would explain the significant differences while Homer still could have been one of the poets and HIS writings in them could have been totally consistent. Or is this wrong because in saying that "they are almost certainly not the work of the same poet," the conclusion means to say that the poet must be the sole poet? (if that makes any sense)? there is no indication to me that would preclude others working on these works but having Homer still be the one its attributed to and the one who wrote good chunks of both of them while the other non-acknowledged poets contribute as well and THEIR work is what accounts for the discrepancies.

To me, this interpretation weakens the argument as well and I am still tripped up by (C)'s mention of "modern" writers...

thanks!

[haeaznboiyoung]

I gotta chime in as well...


I chose B (pretty confidently too) since to me B would say that modern copies of the Illiad and Odyssey have been subject to copying errors and textual corruptions that have distorted the original tone and vocabulary. So there if B were true, there is no way we can conclude that the works are not of the same poet since they were based on distorted information....

[mrudula_2005]

I gotta chime in as well...


I chose B (pretty confidently too) since to me B would say that modern copies of the Illiad and Odyssey have been subject to copying errors and textual corruptions that have distorted the original tone and vocabulary. So there if B were true, there is no way we can conclude that the works are not of the same poet since they were based on distorted information....

But notice how the stimulus says "these two poems differ greatly in tone and vocabulary and in certain details of the fictional world they depict."

(B) says that the poems have suffered from "minor" copying errors and other textual corruptions - that is very weak and cannot possibly account for the significant differences that are reported in the stimulus.

(B) to me indicates that there were some typos, etc. but they are explicitly referred to as "minor" issues. But notice how the stimulus talks about differences in the fictional world each work depicts. That's a pretty huge difference that cannot be accounted for because of "minor" copying errors - minor copying errors cannot be responsible for different details in a plot or in the tone of the poems.

[giladedelman]

Great discussion, folks! The key as far as answer (B) goes is that "textual corruptions," even extreme ones, wouldn't account for differences "in tone and vocabulary and details of the fictional world."

Now with (D), be careful! The argument is about the authorship of two different works; this answer choice is only about internal inconsistencies, that is, details of each work taken by itself. Also, what does it mean to say a work isn't "completely consistent"? Couldn't that mean 99% consistent?

And you're going way too far with (E)! (I respect the effort, though.) You're right that it doesn't technically rule out the possibility of Homer being involved, but this argument is about whether the two poems can be attributed to him. Anyway, it's a huge stretch to get from multiple oral authorship to actually weakening the argument that Homer wasn't involved.

Keep the discussions coming!

[shirando21]

It looks like "attributed to" is not equivalent to "of the same poet".

Is this the issue why A is not correct?

[bbirdwell]

First of all, you're totally onto something! "Attributed to" means "people say it's this way," which is why the argument exists in the first place -- we don't KNOW whether he wrote them or not, some people just say he did.

Next, be very clear of your task: you must weaken the conclusion that Homer did NOT write both the Iliad and the Odyssey. This means that you want to select a choice that suggests he DID write them both.

Try a similar argument:
People say Jeff wrote Book A and Book B. But these books are way different from each other. Therefore, Jeff most likely didn't write them both.

And a similar incorrect answer:
(A) People say Jeff wrote Poems XYZ, too, and they're REALLY different from Book A.

... So what? One big problem is that we still don't KNOW whether Jeff wrote A and B, and we also don't know if he wrote XYZ -- it's all hearsay, and therefore all up for debate. Therefore, this choice gets us nowhere. It doesn't weaken or strengthen, because nothing is really known.

Contrast that with the correct answer: works KNOWN to have been written by the same author can be different from each other! This undermines the argument's only (tiny) piece of evidence: the works are different from each other.

Choice (C) says "Big deal! People write works that are different from each other all the time!"

(A) does say that: the difference between the hymns ATTRIBUTED to Homer, and the Odyssey, is bigger than the difference between the Iliad and the Odyssey (which are also attributed to him).

I think it's important to note that, in addition to the concept of attribution, the path to (C) is quite clear when we remember that good weaken/strengthen answers play on key assumptions in the arguments.

Here, there is one gleaming assumption: that the fact that the books are different means something in regards to authorship... that if two works are by the same author, they must not be different.

In order to weaken the argument, we should trash this assumption -- logical weakeners must destroy (or at least harm) the connective tissue between premise and conclusion (assumptions).

Hope that helps...

[kanikakumar19]

I know its been a while since this post was active but hopefully someone can address a doubt I am having with regard to why D is not correct.

I choose D because if not Illiad and Odyssey individually are completely inconsistent in all the respects themselves then it follows that they are individually different with respect to tone and vocabulary and thus the original premise would be weakened since there is no benchmark tone and vocabulary to compare anything with. If there exists no standard tone and vocabulary that can be attributed to Homer then the passage's central assumption is negated.

I just don't get why D is wrong then. Help!!!

[T.J.]

First, I will answer the question posted above.

The core of this argument is the differences between the Illiad and Odyssey, not the differences within either of the two. That is the first conceptual substance to parse out. Moreover, don't get fooled by "not completely consistent". Given that they are not completely consistent, they could still be largely consistent (99% mentioned above in one other post). In fact, I doubt if there is any work that is absolutely consistent within itself. The key is to focus on the core of argument. Don't go with the red herring.

Second, A is such an interesting choice.

I want to bring up another point which I haven't seen above.
"Several hymns" make me really suspicious, as hymns and poems are totally different things. In fact, poems are what we care in this question. I'm saying that hymns are supposed to be different from poems, right? Again, bringing up hymn is off the base. That's why I eliminated A.

[Alvanith]

As a response to the post above...

I would not eliminate an answer choice simply because hymns are different from poems, it is better to cast a wider net for weaken questions.

How about this answer: Many hymns that are known to be attributed to Homer differ greatly in the respects mentioned as are the Iliad and Odyssey?

IMO, this could weaken the argument even though it is about hymns. To weaken an argument is not to destroy the argument.

Please correct me if I am wrong:)

[mornincounselor]

Is it relevant that this question asks us to weaken "the reasoning" and not the conclusion?

[ohthatpatrick]

It's definitely relevant that the question stem says "reasoning", but "reasoning" means the same thing as "argument".

And 99% of all Weaken questions are talking about weakening the "reasoning/argument", so this question isn't special for using that word.

"Reasoning/argument" indicate that a conclusion was made on the basis of at least one piece of evidence.

To evaluate, strengthen, or weaken the reasoning/argument, you are first and foremost concerned with assumptions being made (missing connective tissue between the premise(s) and the conclusion).

When we enter the Evidence family (Inference, Resolve/Explain the Paradox), you'll see the paragraph referred to as
statements
information
evidence
observations
passage
or
claims

These are all neutral "set of facts" type nouns. They do NOT indicate that a conclusion was derived from a premise.

To answer a question two posts ago, if (A) said
(A) Several hymns that are known to have been written by Homer differ from each other as much as the Iliad and the Odyssey do.

that would be a correct answer. When you keep "attributed to" in there, you're still dealing with people's GUESS about who wrote something. So that doesn't pack much informative punch.

Great point though about "casting a wider net". Yes (A) brings up "hymns", not poems, but our correct answer (C) brings up "modern writers", not Homer.

There could be significant differences between poems vs. hymns just as there could be significant differences between an ancient writer vs. modern writer

Remember that Weaken answers don't REFUTE, they just introduce doubt. So somewhat analogous cases are fair game.

[Mab6q]

Let me just give my rundown of the answer choices here because I think everyone has the argument core down.

A. Is irrelevant. It shows that some other work attributed to Homer (let's assume they are Homer's) differ more from the Illiad in the respects mentioned than does the Odyssey. This doesnt weaken at all. If I were the author, I would simply say: there's more evidence for my point because the Iliad differs even more from some works of Homer. It simply adds another example to the stimulus, the hymns, that are even more difference that the Iliad than the Odyssey is. This in no way helps weakens the argument.

B, see mshinners' response.

C, is the surest weaken answer here. It simply gives us another example. The author concludes: ~Works are similar --> ~Same author. This answer choice gives us ~Works are similiar --> Same author. Weakens.

D, this is temping, but it's ultimately a very weak answer choice. So what if they are not completely consistent (maybe they have a few differences), we know that the Iliad and the Odyssey differ [b]GREATLY[b] from each other. C is a much better.

E, like C, I would argue that this strengthens. It shows that many poems were involved in composing these two poems, so it would give support to the fact that Homer himself could not have written it by himself. It would explain the differences between the two.

Hope that helps

[mshinners]

B, in my opinion, if anything, this might even strengthen. The answer choice is trying to hint at the fact that they might not be different after all, that they were changed over time due to copying errors. And as such, it they are not difference, it proves strengthens the authors claim by showing that same author --> similar works .

I disagree with this assessment.

The argument is about great differences in tone, vocab, and details. Maybe, MAYBE you could change a bit of vocab and some small details with a couple of typos (which is what minor copying errors and textual corruptions amount to). This answer choice isn't talking about big enough changes to explain why the two poems differ so much. That's the big problem here - it's out of scope by talking about something completely different than the argument.

As an example, let's say that, for some reason, Twilight survives the next 2000 years, including an apocalypse that wipes out all technology. People copy the book by hand. Would minor copying errors suddenly change the tone, vocab, or details enough to make it unrecognizable? Probably not. A dropped letter here or there; switching a few "you're" for "yours", etc..., and you still have, more or less, something with a similar tone, vocab, and details. If that happened to both Twilight and Breaking Dawn (that's another book in the series, right?), we'd still likely be able to say that they're both by ... Stephanie something? and part of the same series.

[erikwoodward10]

Could the stimulus be thought of as a cause/effect relationship? Cause being "differing in tone and vocabulary, and in certain details of the certain world they depict", and the effect being "they are almost certainly not works of the same poet.

This would make C correct because it shows that when the cause occurs, the effect doesn't.

Either way I see the logic of C. And I've seen several examples of weakening questions where the correct answer choice provides an analogy that suggests a different relationship between the premises and conclusion in an analogous argument.

The C/E relationship is just something that I realized on my blind review. Thoughts?

[ohthatpatrick]

You could often find any of these forms interchangeable:

prem -> conc
cause -> effect
criterion -> judgment
reason -> decision

This argument isn't explicitly causal, but I see where you're getting that feel.

I think you're just using cause/effect as a proxy for "this distinction CAUSED me to reach this JUDGMENT about the two works".

And, just like a causal argument, this argument can be weakened by showing that THIS DISTINCTION can be present, even though THE JUDGMENT is not.

Essentially, your "Cause, No-Effect" weaken template is the same as a "Premise, No-Conclusion" template.

Check out PT42, Sec2, Q6 for another example of the same type of correct answer.
https://www.manhattanprep.com/lsat/foru ... t4129.html

It's merely weakening by showing that the PREMISE is compatible with the OPPOSITE OF THE CONCLUSION.

[phoebster21]

such a great explanation! Thank you! I like to come up with analogous arguments and answer choices sometimes to see if I really understand the assumption or flaw or whatever is going on in the stimulus. Can you please confirm if this is analogous?

The people on the block of Eddendale claim that Bobby and Cindy are brother and sister. But these two people have different hair color, different eye color and overall look very different from each other. So, they are almost certainly not siblings.

A) People on the block also believe that Mark and Justin are Bobby's brothers and they look even more different from Bobby than Cindy does.

C) Human phenotype (physical features) reproduce and manifest in exactly the same way that dogs do (just assume that for this answer choice). Puppies that are known by DNA testing to be from the same litter can also have different fur color, different eye color and also be overall very different looking from each other.


The distinction between DNA verified PROOF of something (i.e. works "known" to have been written by same author) versus what the people on the block say (i.e. works "attributed" to homer)

[ohthatpatrick]

That analogy definitely works (and made me chuckle when you were like, "I have no idea if this phenotype thing is real, but pretend it is").

[zevman2728]

I think the reason why D is wrong is because the illiad (or the odyssey) itself could have been written by two different authors further proving the point of the passage that it wasnt written by Homer