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Q13 - Although most builders do not consider the experimenta

by lukas.marko Fri Nov 09, 2012 2:41 pm

I'm having a hard time seeing why E is correct here as a flaw in the argument. I can now eliminate the remaining choices but I wouldn't feel good about choosing E.

As an aside, did anyone else feel like PT 67 was a bit harder than a -10 curve test? Maybe I'm biased because I actually took it and scored much worse than my PT average. But even after taking it again blindly (without knowing the correct answers) I still scored a bit lower than normal (despite being familiar with some of the content).
 
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Re: Q13 - Although most builders do not consider the experimenta

by yhcho Sat Nov 10, 2012 3:59 pm

I am not sure if my thinking is correct but I will just write my own explanation so someone more knowledgeable will hopefully correct my thinking and make me better.

The author is basically saying that since the second group of builders is known to regularly use this material, their claim is more credible than the claim made by most builders.

From my standpoint I see two flaws:
1. Given that these builders regularly work with the material primarily on small-scale projects, they have questionable authority to offer advice on the material’s suitability in large-scale projects.

2. Their familiarity with the use of papercrete is taken as sole evidence that their claim is more credible. In doing so the author makes an unwarranted assumption that the other party making the opposing claim (most builders) is not familiar with the material.

(A) is not correct because the builders who regularly work with papercrete in small scale projects do not claim that the material is promising for small-scale construction (in response to the 1st claim that the material is not promising for large-scale projects, they think "otherwise").

(B) cannot be correct because if the author assumes this, then the author would conclude in favor of the claim made by most builders.

(D) does not describe the flaw happening in this case because even if he does take this into account, it is unknown as to whether the builders with the most experience would constitute an extreme minority.

(E) is correct because it attacks the underlying assumption of the author.
PT34 S3 Q20 has a similar flaw I think!

I took this test as my first official LSAT. I too scored a lot worse than PT average but did a whole lot better the second time around when I took it blinded... I don't know. For me I guess taking this section right after KUNG was bad. BAD. The rest was of fairly average difficulty I think.
 
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Re: Q13 - Although most builders do not consider the experimenta

by lukas.marko Sat Nov 10, 2012 5:17 pm

Thanks for the reply. After reading the question again and your explanation, E pops out much more.

As for the whole test, I thought LR was pretty average, but Zones seemed to give lots of people problems, so it was probably a bit above average. RC killed me but maybe it was only above average difficulty. But the last few tests have had pretty hard RC so maybe it's more in line with the recent tests.
 
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Re: Q13 - Although most builders do not consider the experimenta

by chike_eze Sun Nov 11, 2012 10:40 pm

lukas.marko Wrote:I'm having a hard time seeing why E is correct here as a flaw in the argument. I can now eliminate the remaining choices but I wouldn't feel good about choosing E.

As an aside, did anyone else feel like PT 67 was a bit harder than a -10 curve test? Maybe I'm biased because I actually took it and scored much worse than my PT average. But even after taking it again blindly (without knowing the correct answers) I still scored a bit lower than normal (despite being familiar with some of the content).

Interesting. I had the same experience too. I redid LR 1 blind and scored only marginally better. LR 2 was a different story. I redid it blind and scored much much better. I can only conclude that PT67 LR was a bit more trickier than I am used to. I was doing -3 to -6 on LR, -0 or -1 on 1 thru 10 before the Oct exam. Damn!

For example, I've done this one question several times and I still run into issues with it.
 
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Re: Q13 - Although most builders do not consider the experimenta

by lukas.marko Thu Nov 15, 2012 10:30 pm

chike_eze Wrote:
lukas.marko Wrote:I'm having a hard time seeing why E is correct here as a flaw in the argument. I can now eliminate the remaining choices but I wouldn't feel good about choosing E.

As an aside, did anyone else feel like PT 67 was a bit harder than a -10 curve test? Maybe I'm biased because I actually took it and scored much worse than my PT average. But even after taking it again blindly (without knowing the correct answers) I still scored a bit lower than normal (despite being familiar with some of the content).

Interesting. I had the same experience too. I redid LR 1 blind and scored only marginally better. LR 2 was a different story. I redid it blind and scored much much better. I can only conclude that PT67 LR was a bit more trickier than I am used to. I was doing -3 to -6 on LR, -0 or -1 on 1 thru 10 before the Oct exam. Damn!

For example, I've done this one question several times and I still run into issues with it.


Honestly, I think for me the difficultly may be in the wording of the correct answer (E). Reading it now I fully understand what the answer choice is saying but when I went through it quickly during test time, what I thought it was trying to say wasn't actually what it said. I know it's not worded particularly awkwardly; it's more of my reading oversight.

That and also it didn't match my anticipated answer for the flaw of this argument.
 
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Re: Q13 - Although most builders do not consider the experimenta

by samjcg Sun Jun 09, 2013 2:18 pm

Although I believe yhcho has good points on why some answers are wrong and why E is correct, I would like to add my explanations to why they are so.
This is my 1st post so I hope I dont screw anyone over by giving wrong explanations but I would definitely love some feedbacks from any geeks here.

The stimulus carries on by saying most builders do not consider the experimental building material papercrete to be a promising material for large-scale construction but for small-scale projects who frequently uses say they are promising.

The conclusion is the last part of the stimulus saying "papercrete is infact promising for large-scale construction." why? because people who regularly use it say so.

A) It does not confuse "what" is promising for small-scale with "what" is promising for large-scale. They are talking about the same "what", which is the papercrete.

B) Does not presume that the "majority of builders" thinks is promising must be in fact be promising. I see this answer to be correct if "majority of builders" were switched with "builders who regularly use."

C) No indication of equivocation here.

D) This is true that the stimulus do not consider the views of the most experienced with the papercrete. But this is not the flaw of the argument.

E) States the underlying assumption here. Maybe most builders are in fact not using it because they are already familiar with the property of papercrete knowing that it is not too promising.

whew, 1st post done. I would love some feedback from you guys.
 
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Re: Q13 - Although most builders do not consider the experimenta

by austindyoung Sun Sep 29, 2013 4:23 pm

Good job samjcg! I'm not a geek, but that explanation is helpful.

While I would NOT diagram this on the test, what we see here is a standard assumption question, hidden under wordy flack. Now, I'm going to walk through all the mechanics of this, as best as I can and just try and break apart this question. It's long, and not as good as a geek would do it, but I hope at the end you get what the question is doing.



P1: Most builders ---> ~Promising

P2: Regularly Work w/papercrete ---> Promising

P3: Regular Work w/papercrete ---> Familiar with Properties

Conclusion: Papercrete ---> Promising




Now, let's take the P1 and do the contrapositive of it so that "~Promising" matches with the positive (non-negated) "Promising."

Now we have this:

P1: Promising ---> ~Most Builders

P2: Regularly Work w/papercrete ---> Promising

P3: Regular Work w/papercrete ---> Familiar with Properties

Conclusion: Papercrete ---> Promising


Now, I'm going to attach "~Most builders" to the other parts of this Stimulus to where it's sufficient condition ("Promising") is present. So I'll get this:

P1: Promising ---> ~Most Builders

P2: Regularly Work w/papercrete ---> Promising---> ~Most Builders

P3: Regular Work w/papercrete ---> Familiar with Properties

Conclusion: Papercrete ---> Promising ---> ~ Most builders


In this Question, and this does not happen in most assumption questions, the Assumption occurs between a premise and a subsidiary conclusion, rather than between a premise and the final conclusion.

So, do you see the shift? It occurs between P2 and P3. Here it is, abbreviated with the parts that need to be connected in red:

P2: Regularly work with papercrete---> Prmsng ---> ~Mst Builders
P3: Regular work with papercrete ---> Familiar

The Conclusion makes a claim about: Papercrete--- and for diagram/argument purposes, even though it's different than the "Regularly works with papercrete" variable of the argument, they are interchangeable in this case. This flexibility will come with time as you diagram more and more.

So the Conclusion makes a claim about Papercrete ---> then it's Promising. But we can't just ignore the premise (P3) that uses "familiarity." It's part of the Author's argument and it needs to be tied in. So, the Assumption is

~Most Builders ---> Familiar.

The contrapositive of this would sound like: If you're not familiar with the properties of papercrete, then you're most of the builders out there (~Familiar ---> Most Builders)

That's the Assumption the argument hinges on. If this was a Necessary (or perhaps Sufficient Assumption question, because in this case it Assumption is Necessary & Sufficient) this would likely be the answer. If you disagree, let me know.

What the author DOES NOT consider is "What if this Assumption is wrong," or, logically, what if the NEGATION of the Assumption is correct, and, in fact, (per the contrapositive above):

If you're not familiar with the properties of papercrete, then you're not most builders--- and let's just take the contrapositive of this:

If you're most builders, then you're familiar with the properties of papercrete.

However, the correct AC doesn't just use this part of the premise. It uses the ends of it, rather than the middle. But the only way it does this is by connecting it in the middle. So here's the whole thing, that is, P2 & P3 combined via the assumption:


Regularly work with papercrete---> Promising ---> ~Most Builders---> Familiar

We can dilute this down to the ends that are used: Regularly work w/papercrete ---> Familiar.

Now, once again, the author always assumes the assumption, and not the negation of it. The negation of the diluted conditional is:

Regularly work with papercrete ---> ~Familiar. The contrapositive of this is

Familiar ---> ~Regularly work with papercrete.


And that's what (E) says

If I did anything wrong, let me know.

HTH
 
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Re: Q13 - Although most builders do not consider the experimenta

by coco.wu1993 Sun Apr 27, 2014 3:32 am

I did this question wrong because I take "those who regularly use papercrete are familiar with the properties of the material" as a premise instead of an intermediary conclusion. I don't think this statement is supported by any information in the stimulus. Any thought?
 
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Re: Q13 - Although most builders do not consider the experimenta

by christine.defenbaugh Tue May 06, 2014 1:21 pm

coco.wu1993 Wrote:I did this question wrong because I take "those who regularly use papercrete are familiar with the properties of the material" as a premise instead of an intermediary conclusion. I don't think this statement is supported by any information in the stimulus. Any thought?



coco.wu1993, I have to agree with you. There's no subsidiary conclusion being made in this stimulus.

Additionally, while austindyoung's diagramming analysis is very creative, I'm afraid it is a fundamentally incorrect way to attack this question. These are not conditional statements, and as such can't be linked or contraposed in that way.

Hats off, though, to yhcho! That breakdown above is stellar!

Now, let's do a solid core breakdown here, just to make sure we're all on the same page. Let's lay out all the pieces, then we can try to simplify it a bit.

    PREMISES:
    1) most builders are anti-papercrete
    2) small group (regular users) of builders are pro-papercrete
    3) regular users are familiar with the properties

    CONCLUSION
    Papercrete is promising!


So, basically we have two groups: the larger groups, which is anti-papercrete, and the smaller group, which is pro-papercrete AND we know they are familiar with papercrete's properties.

Imagine that you surveyed a group of children asking whether they liked Spiderman. All the boys said YES, and all the girls said NO. Then I say "well, the boys all saw the Spiderman movie, so their opinion is more likely to be right." Even accepting the idea that seeing the movie makes your opinion more valid (which is a little odd) - we don't know anything about whether the girls also saw the movie!

The same fundamental things is happening here. We can simplify this core a bit:

    PREMISES:
    1) most builders are anti-papercrete
    2) small group (who are familiar) are pro-papercrete

    CONCLUSION
    Papercrete is promising!


We're making a few assumptions here: 1) We're assuming that familiarity matters. 2) We're assuming that the small group is MORE familiar than the anti-papercrete group!

The wording of (E) is a bit more specific than we actually need it to be, and that may have caused some of the confusion. All we need is an answer choice that says that the argument fails to consider [that most builders might be familiar with the properties of papercrete]. The specific scenario mentioned in (E) does the job, but we probably didn't predict that exact wording. And that's okay!

Interesting discussion everyone!
 
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Re: Q13 - Although most builders do not consider the experimenta

by mornincounselor Fri Jul 10, 2015 12:12 am

Is it the word "primarily" in the prompt which makes (A) wrong? Had the stimulus replaced "primarily" with "who do so" would that make the answer choice credited?

I ask primarily (hehe) because when I looked back over the problem after seeing I missed the question that word is what jumped out at me as something I had missed. If these builders who found the material effective worked only on small scale projects couldn't we then point out that their conclusions have little bearing on large-scale construction projects?

Or would we also have to change the stimulus's conclusion?

If we changed "Since those who regularly . . . material" with "Hence," that would eliminate the sampling issues completely.

Would doing so make (A) correct or am I completely off base?
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Re: Q13 - Although most builders do not consider the experimenta

by maryadkins Wed Jul 15, 2015 5:47 pm

I think you're focusing on the wrong flaw here. (A) is wrong not because of "primarily" but because even if the people LIKE it, that doesn't make it "promising." They can like it and it still be awful. Liking it is subjective. Calling it "promising," on the other hand, is stating that there is objectively something good about it.

This large scale versus small scale issue is a red herring in (A). For the large scale versus small scale flaw to be valid, we'd have to have a different stimulus saying something about how it IS good for small scale projects, not just that some people THINK it's fine.
 
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Re: Q13 - Although most builders do not consider the experimenta

by Vivi Thu Nov 19, 2015 11:09 am

Still have a bit issue with A. Does A say as "confuse on what's promising for small scale can be inferred to large scale"?

A says "confuse", which seems to cover a board of nuances - including becaue confused, so it couldn't tell how it IS good for small scale projects vs. big one. I didn't find "like" in the stumli, so wonder how "like" affects here.

Could any greek please help clarify?

In general, "confuse" would be mostly likely a distracting 'wrong' answer choice (becasue it's less specific) or LSAT has specifc meaning on "confuse"?
If possilbe, could anyone find a question that has "confuse" as a valid flaw answer?

Thank you :D
 
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Re: Q13 - Although most builders do not consider the experimenta

by estellaW580 Tue Sep 04, 2018 9:55 pm

Vivi Wrote:Still have a bit issue with A. Does A say as "confuse on what's promising for small scale can be inferred to large scale"?

A says "confuse", which seems to cover a board of nuances - including becaue confused, so it couldn't tell how it IS good for small scale projects vs. big one. I didn't find "like" in the stumli, so wonder how "like" affects here.

Could any greek please help clarify?

In general, "confuse" would be mostly likely a distracting 'wrong' answer choice (becasue it's less specific) or LSAT has specifc meaning on "confuse"?
If possilbe, could anyone find a question that has "confuse" as a valid flaw answer?

Thank you :D


Hey, so lets look at the argument,
basically it says... most builders dont think papercrete is promising for large-scale constructions.
ok THEN IT SAYS, those who work with it a lot , THINK OTHERWISE.... what does otherwise imply?
Scratch the primarily on small-scale part for a second, THINK OTHERWISE means: those who work with papercrete a lot, THINK THAT PAPERCRETE IS PROMISING for LARGE-SCALE constructions INDEED.

lastly, the conclusion : because those who work with it a lot ---- THESE PEOPLE are FAMILIAR WITH THE PROPERTIES of papercrete...

in other words, : BECAUSE OF THEIR FAMILIARITY WITH THE PROPERTIES, the author thinks their conclusion is reliable.

thus, it is likely that papercrete is indeed promising for large-scale.

when you scratch the primarily on small-scale part.... and pay attention to what each sentence actually means. this become very clear.

the author is basically saying : ok look, because the people who use papercrete a lot thinks its good for big buildings, (despite the fact they mostly use it in small buildings), its probably reliable what they say is true.

Analogy: ok look, because people who eat banana a lot thinks banana is good for all meals, despite the fact they mostly eat it for breakfast, it is probably true bananas are good for all meals, since those people who eat banana a lot must know what they are doing..... (familiar with bananas properties).....

the FLAW is : it assumes that most builders in the first sentence ARENT familiar with the properties of papercrete, therefore their conclusions are NOT as reliable as the ones who know what papercrete is ......

Analogy: assumes most people on earth dont know what banana is or any of its properties, so we should trust what people who eat bananas every meal say, instead of the rest of the world, who DON'T .... PRECISELY because they know what banana is and know eating it every meal is not good for them......

I hope this clarifies it .

LSAT trap here is to put small scale large scale, small scale, repetitively to confuse your focus. but if you scratch the primarily on small-scale part.... It becomes very clear.
 
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Re: Q13 - Although most builders do not consider the experimenta

by ShiyuF391 Wed Jan 16, 2019 4:11 am

christine.defenbaugh Wrote:
coco.wu1993 Wrote:I did this question wrong because I take "those who regularly use papercrete are familiar with the properties of the material" as a premise instead of an intermediary conclusion. I don't think this statement is supported by any information in the stimulus. Any thought?



coco.wu1993, I have to agree with you. There's no subsidiary conclusion being made in this stimulus.

Additionally, while austindyoung's diagramming analysis is very creative, I'm afraid it is a fundamentally incorrect way to attack this question. These are not conditional statements, and as such can't be linked or contraposed in that way.

Hats off, though, to yhcho! That breakdown above is stellar!

Now, let's do a solid core breakdown here, just to make sure we're all on the same page. Let's lay out all the pieces, then we can try to simplify it a bit.

    PREMISES:
    1) most builders are anti-papercrete
    2) small group (regular users) of builders are pro-papercrete
    3) regular users are familiar with the properties

    CONCLUSION
    Papercrete is promising!


So, basically we have two groups: the larger groups, which is anti-papercrete, and the smaller group, which is pro-papercrete AND we know they are familiar with papercrete's properties.

Imagine that you surveyed a group of children asking whether they liked Spiderman. All the boys said YES, and all the girls said NO. Then I say "well, the boys all saw the Spiderman movie, so their opinion is more likely to be right." Even accepting the idea that seeing the movie makes your opinion more valid (which is a little odd) - we don't know anything about whether the girls also saw the movie!

The same fundamental things is happening here. We can simplify this core a bit:

    PREMISES:
    1) most builders are anti-papercrete
    2) small group (who are familiar) are pro-papercrete

    CONCLUSION
    Papercrete is promising!


We're making a few assumptions here: 1) We're assuming that familiarity matters. 2) We're assuming that the small group is MORE familiar than the anti-papercrete group!

The wording of (E) is a bit more specific than we actually need it to be, and that may have caused some of the confusion. All we need is an answer choice that says that the argument fails to consider [that most builders might be familiar with the properties of papercrete]. The specific scenario mentioned in (E) does the job, but we probably didn't predict that exact wording. And that's okay!

Interesting discussion everyone!



Crystal clear! Thanks a bunch.