Hi, I'll post my dilemma below, but first the stats:
School:
Stern undergrad in finance/accounting
Minor in Sociology
3.7GPA
Paid for school through work and scholarships
W/E:
2 yrs in banking doing M&A (1.25 in a boutique (1st), 1 yrs at a top bank (2))
Transaction volume over $40bn
Ranked top analyst in both places
Currently work at a top 5 private equity firm (1.5 years)
E/C:
Mainly mentoring
-Mentor since junior in college, continued after graduation
-Initiated internship program while working at 1st job
-Joined the Board of a nonprofit earlier this year. NP involved with high school students and placing them in internships
-Heavy participating in the nonprofit (brought on 2 new internship sites, initiated dialogue with another nonprofit to work together, fundraising, and on a few Board committees)
-Should also note here that I'm applying for the MBA/MPA program
GMAT....
So I know I started the process late and should have taken it way more seriously. But friends at work (who are obv much smarter) got 750+ without much studying so I figured it should be ok. Reviewed the basics a bit and took the 1st practice test using GMATPrep and scored 710 (verbal was 42 - 95%). Went in for the real thing - basically had a panic attack in math b/c the problems were much harder and I ran out of time. Decided to not see the score and really spend the time to prep for it. Spent past month studying and felt much more comfortable on math and minimal studying for sentence corrections (my only issue in verbal). Scored higher on the second GMAT Prep and went in yesterday for real test 2 - math was still hard but manageable (expected 44 - 47), and actually thought verbal was easy. Expected to see 710-730 but saw... 650 (q44/v35). Completely bombed the verbal.
So now on to the question:
I have 5 weeks to R2 deadline for the three schools (H/S/W) that I'm applying for. I have not done essays (any of them) and now if I want to get it in this year I will also need to do more studying for GMAT. So here are the outcomes:
1) Wait a year to apply (if so, I will likely go work at a nonprofit (e.g., Gates Foundation)) and really spend the time on GMAT (I know I could do at least 700)
2) Study and retake GMAT in a month
a. Score over 700 and everyone is happy
b. Score high 600s
1. Apply this year and hope the rest of the app carries me
2. Wait until next year to apply after getting a better GMAT score.
Given the time constraints this year, should I even try? Will another not-too-great GMAT hurt me if I do get over 700 next year? What are my chances if my score in a month is in the high 600s?
Really appreciate any thoughts/comments.
GMAT Forum
10 postsPage 1 of 1
- Bummed out
A few additions
On W/E:
Should read: Top-ranked analyst
On E/C:
Did policy debate for 1st two years in college. Became treasurer in second year and was basically elected to be president before I informed the group that I cannot accept the post (needed finance internship and plus keep my job that pays the bills). Plan to write the ordeal in my "failure" essay...
Should read: Top-ranked analyst
On E/C:
Did policy debate for 1st two years in college. Became treasurer in second year and was basically elected to be president before I informed the group that I cannot accept the post (needed finance internship and plus keep my job that pays the bills). Plan to write the ordeal in my "failure" essay...
- MBAApply
Apply this year.
You may have a rough time at it for the next 5 weeks (but you're a banker, so I know you can do it!) - see if you can re-take the GMAT *and* do the essays.
If you don't get in this year, you can always reapply next year - you give yourself potentially two opportunities to apply.
As for friends who claim they didn't study much, I would take it with a grain of salt. It's the ego talking -- it makes them feel better when they say "nah, I didn't study much, it was a piece of cake" rather than actually saying "I secretly worked my ass off".
Also, what will really distinguish you are your extracurriculars. Whether you were the top rated analyst or not is basically irrelevant to an adcom (you'll find that out soon enough - in your analyst class, those who get in vs. those who don't have very little to do with how good they were as analysts). You're not going to school to be a better IB analyst, and b-schools know that.
One other reason for applying this year -- HBS' window of opportunity is very narrow. For example, for this year's incoming class (Class of 2010), 90% of the grads are 28 or younger, with around 60% of the class around 25-26 years old at time of matriculation. That's a pretty narrow distribution. As for the "outliers" in terms of age, they are far more likely to be fresh college grads on on extreme, or nontraditional applicants on the other (mostly military). And especially for banker types - there really is a window of opportunity, and you're at that point now (the typical ex-banker type at HBS, Stanford and Wharton spent 2-3 years as analyst and 1-2 years in PE or industry prior to matriculation). Stanford and Wharton's distribution isn't quite as narrow as HBS', but in your case you are better off applying sooner than later.
This doesn't mean you can't get in next year, but if you can, do whatever it takes to submit your applications this year for Round 2 (while retaking the GMAT at the same time). That's a tall order, but having been an analyst myself way back in the day, I know that you have the stamina to do so :-)
Alex Chu
alex@mbaapply.com
www.mbaapply.com
http://mbaapply.blogspot.com
You may have a rough time at it for the next 5 weeks (but you're a banker, so I know you can do it!) - see if you can re-take the GMAT *and* do the essays.
If you don't get in this year, you can always reapply next year - you give yourself potentially two opportunities to apply.
As for friends who claim they didn't study much, I would take it with a grain of salt. It's the ego talking -- it makes them feel better when they say "nah, I didn't study much, it was a piece of cake" rather than actually saying "I secretly worked my ass off".
Also, what will really distinguish you are your extracurriculars. Whether you were the top rated analyst or not is basically irrelevant to an adcom (you'll find that out soon enough - in your analyst class, those who get in vs. those who don't have very little to do with how good they were as analysts). You're not going to school to be a better IB analyst, and b-schools know that.
One other reason for applying this year -- HBS' window of opportunity is very narrow. For example, for this year's incoming class (Class of 2010), 90% of the grads are 28 or younger, with around 60% of the class around 25-26 years old at time of matriculation. That's a pretty narrow distribution. As for the "outliers" in terms of age, they are far more likely to be fresh college grads on on extreme, or nontraditional applicants on the other (mostly military). And especially for banker types - there really is a window of opportunity, and you're at that point now (the typical ex-banker type at HBS, Stanford and Wharton spent 2-3 years as analyst and 1-2 years in PE or industry prior to matriculation). Stanford and Wharton's distribution isn't quite as narrow as HBS', but in your case you are better off applying sooner than later.
This doesn't mean you can't get in next year, but if you can, do whatever it takes to submit your applications this year for Round 2 (while retaking the GMAT at the same time). That's a tall order, but having been an analyst myself way back in the day, I know that you have the stamina to do so :-)
Alex Chu
alex@mbaapply.com
www.mbaapply.com
http://mbaapply.blogspot.com
- Bummed out
Alex,
Thank you for the quick reply. A few follow ups if you don't mind:
1) What do you think my chances are under various GMAT scores? Say 650, 680, and 700+? Obv the higher the better but any quantifiable information would be very helpful.
2) Will a rejection for this year hurt me next year? I know the apps ask if one has applied in previous years.
3) Was your comment on E/C a comment on me and my experience or just a general comment?
4) Does the fact that I'm applying for a joint program help or hurt my chances?
Thanks again, Alex.
Thank you for the quick reply. A few follow ups if you don't mind:
1) What do you think my chances are under various GMAT scores? Say 650, 680, and 700+? Obv the higher the better but any quantifiable information would be very helpful.
2) Will a rejection for this year hurt me next year? I know the apps ask if one has applied in previous years.
3) Was your comment on E/C a comment on me and my experience or just a general comment?
4) Does the fact that I'm applying for a joint program help or hurt my chances?
Thanks again, Alex.
- MBA Mission
Dear Bummed Out,
It is disappointing to score below the score you expect, especially when you've been studying. Your question is clearly one that only you can decide, but I'll give you a few thoughts. First, on the GMAT score - while 650 is slightly low, don't think of 700 as being the lowest acceptable score. If you re-take the GMAT and score in the high 600's, it won't have any kind of negative impact on your application to those schools.
That being said, it comes down to your own work schedule and commitment. 3 top schools and a GMAT in 5 weeks is a lot. Ideally you would be able to do both, and as long as you brought your GMAT score up just a bit (your option 2b) it shouldn't be an issue. But if you workload is heavy now and you'll end up short-changing your essays, the GMAT and your work, it might not be the right decision. If you do take a year before applying, think about your plan to work for a foundation. You'll then have 3 jobs in 3 years and even though you've been very successful at work, that starts to raise some questions.
I can't give you a clear cut answer but I hope these thoughts help you weigh your decisions.
Sincerely,
Jessica Shklar
MBA Mission
Website: www.mbamission.com
Blog: www.mbamission.com/blog
MBA Mission Insider’s Guides: www.mbamission.com/store.php
Free Consultation: www.mbamission.com/consult.php
It is disappointing to score below the score you expect, especially when you've been studying. Your question is clearly one that only you can decide, but I'll give you a few thoughts. First, on the GMAT score - while 650 is slightly low, don't think of 700 as being the lowest acceptable score. If you re-take the GMAT and score in the high 600's, it won't have any kind of negative impact on your application to those schools.
That being said, it comes down to your own work schedule and commitment. 3 top schools and a GMAT in 5 weeks is a lot. Ideally you would be able to do both, and as long as you brought your GMAT score up just a bit (your option 2b) it shouldn't be an issue. But if you workload is heavy now and you'll end up short-changing your essays, the GMAT and your work, it might not be the right decision. If you do take a year before applying, think about your plan to work for a foundation. You'll then have 3 jobs in 3 years and even though you've been very successful at work, that starts to raise some questions.
I can't give you a clear cut answer but I hope these thoughts help you weigh your decisions.
Sincerely,
Jessica Shklar
MBA Mission
Website: www.mbamission.com
Blog: www.mbamission.com/blog
MBA Mission Insider’s Guides: www.mbamission.com/store.php
Free Consultation: www.mbamission.com/consult.php
- MBAApply
To answer your questions:
(1) If your score is below a 680, it becomes a significant handicap. You still have a shot given your extracurriculars (something that many ex-bankers don't really have), but your chances are slim. Interestingly enough, the school of the three that will most likely overlook your GMAT score is HBS *if and only if* you can really demonstrate exceptional leadership potential based on what you've done in your nonprofit work. Wharton and Stanford do put a premium on strong GMATs no matter what they say publicly. To stay competitive, you realistically need a 680 (even at HBS), and to be safe at least a 700 given all the ex-bankers who are applying and will have similar resumes as you will (the nonprofit work notwithstanding)
(2) No. All three schools essentially ask you to complete an entirely new application (HBS/Stanford: submit everything again, Wharton: complete 3 essays instead of 4). There is a reason they ask this: they will treat you as if you were a first-time applicant. Plus, you will meet quite a number of students at any of these three schools that were reapplicants. It's not uncommon.
(3) It was a comment on you. When you benchmark yourself against other banker types, you have stronger extracurriculars which will be an asset - whether it's a great enough asset for the adcom to overlook your GMAT score will really depend -- chances are, they won't unless you can really hit it out of the ballpark with your applications.
(4) It makes no difference. Joint programs are an odd thing - universities may promote them as "joint" programs with the inference that the whole is greater than the sum of the parts, when in reality like any bureaucratic institution each school operates in silos. Administrations at many schools have tried to improve this but like any big bureaucracy things take time and change comes slowly. In effect, you apply to these schools separately, and they evaluate you separately, so it neither hurts nor helps your chances.
Alex Chu
alex@mbaapply.com
www.mbapply.com
http://mbaapply.blogspot.com
(1) If your score is below a 680, it becomes a significant handicap. You still have a shot given your extracurriculars (something that many ex-bankers don't really have), but your chances are slim. Interestingly enough, the school of the three that will most likely overlook your GMAT score is HBS *if and only if* you can really demonstrate exceptional leadership potential based on what you've done in your nonprofit work. Wharton and Stanford do put a premium on strong GMATs no matter what they say publicly. To stay competitive, you realistically need a 680 (even at HBS), and to be safe at least a 700 given all the ex-bankers who are applying and will have similar resumes as you will (the nonprofit work notwithstanding)
(2) No. All three schools essentially ask you to complete an entirely new application (HBS/Stanford: submit everything again, Wharton: complete 3 essays instead of 4). There is a reason they ask this: they will treat you as if you were a first-time applicant. Plus, you will meet quite a number of students at any of these three schools that were reapplicants. It's not uncommon.
(3) It was a comment on you. When you benchmark yourself against other banker types, you have stronger extracurriculars which will be an asset - whether it's a great enough asset for the adcom to overlook your GMAT score will really depend -- chances are, they won't unless you can really hit it out of the ballpark with your applications.
(4) It makes no difference. Joint programs are an odd thing - universities may promote them as "joint" programs with the inference that the whole is greater than the sum of the parts, when in reality like any bureaucratic institution each school operates in silos. Administrations at many schools have tried to improve this but like any big bureaucracy things take time and change comes slowly. In effect, you apply to these schools separately, and they evaluate you separately, so it neither hurts nor helps your chances.
Alex Chu
alex@mbaapply.com
www.mbapply.com
http://mbaapply.blogspot.com
- Bummed out
Jessica and Alex,
Thank you again for your time - I really appreciate your thoughts and will definitely keep everything in mind.
Looks like I'm leaning towards the "balls to the wall" route (excuse the expression, Jessica). Certainly won't be a fun few weeks, but with a new GMAT tutor and a few extra sets of eyes from my friends on my apps, I hope things will turn out ok...
Cheers,
Less bummed out, but def more pissed
Thank you again for your time - I really appreciate your thoughts and will definitely keep everything in mind.
Looks like I'm leaning towards the "balls to the wall" route (excuse the expression, Jessica). Certainly won't be a fun few weeks, but with a new GMAT tutor and a few extra sets of eyes from my friends on my apps, I hope things will turn out ok...
Cheers,
Less bummed out, but def more pissed
- Guest
MBA Mission's advice?
This applicant should be applying this year, and next, if necessary. Alex is right on about this.
Jessica / MBA Mission, why are you discouraging and scaring this very solid applicant from applying this year?
Is it because you rather have him work on a foundation for next year and possibly pay a very high fees and use your consulting services?
Don't you think that is very deceitful? Why was my last post deleted? I would appreciate it if this post does not get removed. Or I may report your business to the Better Business Bureau as well as other sources.
Applicant, please apply this year. Alex is sincere and accurate about this. This gives you potentially 2 shots at the top schools.
Jessica Skhlar / Jeremy Shinewald - You two individuals strike me as untrustworthy and are just out to scare people into using your services. You hurt ruin this appicants confidence and chances of entering a top program this year. You guys are heartless huh?
Jessica / MBA Mission, why are you discouraging and scaring this very solid applicant from applying this year?
Is it because you rather have him work on a foundation for next year and possibly pay a very high fees and use your consulting services?
Don't you think that is very deceitful? Why was my last post deleted? I would appreciate it if this post does not get removed. Or I may report your business to the Better Business Bureau as well as other sources.
Applicant, please apply this year. Alex is sincere and accurate about this. This gives you potentially 2 shots at the top schools.
Jessica Skhlar / Jeremy Shinewald - You two individuals strike me as untrustworthy and are just out to scare people into using your services. You hurt ruin this appicants confidence and chances of entering a top program this year. You guys are heartless huh?
- Guest
Why the Hostility?
To last Poster,
Why such harsh words for MBA Mission? All of the consultants do us a great service on boards like these. For those of us that can't afford a full consulting fee, these message boards give us a lot of useful free tips. I realize that it is a stressful time for all of us applying, but please don't take your stress out on the message boards.
If you feel so strongly, please do not hide under the anonymity and share all the details of why you feel the way you do.
Why such harsh words for MBA Mission? All of the consultants do us a great service on boards like these. For those of us that can't afford a full consulting fee, these message boards give us a lot of useful free tips. I realize that it is a stressful time for all of us applying, but please don't take your stress out on the message boards.
If you feel so strongly, please do not hide under the anonymity and share all the details of why you feel the way you do.
- Less Bummed Out
Thanks again
Jessica and Alex,
Just wanted to thank you again for the advice. Certainly hasn't been a fun few weeks but I took the test again earlier today and got a 710 (q45/v42). Still disappointed b/c I worked my ass off to study for this thing, and scored a 760 (q50/v42) two days ago on a practice test. But then again, that excludes the 50 point discount that I generously receive on test days due to jitters, etc..
Nevertheless, at least I feel better that it's no longer a hinderance on my app, which are 25% (wharton) to 75%(HBS) done. Still have about a week to polish them but boy am I glad I'm done with standardized tests for the rest of my life...
Happy New Year!
Just wanted to thank you again for the advice. Certainly hasn't been a fun few weeks but I took the test again earlier today and got a 710 (q45/v42). Still disappointed b/c I worked my ass off to study for this thing, and scored a 760 (q50/v42) two days ago on a practice test. But then again, that excludes the 50 point discount that I generously receive on test days due to jitters, etc..
Nevertheless, at least I feel better that it's no longer a hinderance on my app, which are 25% (wharton) to 75%(HBS) done. Still have about a week to polish them but boy am I glad I'm done with standardized tests for the rest of my life...
Happy New Year!
10 posts Page 1 of 1