Vikings!

[parthian7]

The Scandinavian assault on Western Europe culminated in the early eleventh century with the Danish conquest of the English kingdom, which other Scandinavian kings attempted to repeat, unsuccessfully later in the same century.

A. which other Scandinavian kings attempted to repeat, unsuccessfully, later in the same century
B. which other Scandinavian kings attempted to repeat later that same century, but not successfully
C. an achievement that other Scandinavian kings attempted later in the century to repeat, but were not successful at it
D. an achievement attempted later in the century by other Scandinavian kings that was not successful
E. an achievement that other Scandinavian kings attempted to repeat later in the century, but without success


Here's a link to a gmatprep snapshot of the question/with answer:
http://postimage.org/image/e9zvdfg0x/full/

I got it right, mainly by process of elimination..kinda confused over the gmatprep's explanation though..

A and B: easy to get rid of: which refers to English Kingdom: nonsensical

C: two potential referents for "it": "assault" and "achievement" making the sentence ambiguous; also sounds a little awkward to me

D: two potential referents for "that": "assault" and "achievement" making it ambiguous; also it's using a passive structure.

hence, left with E

However gmatprep says the following about C and E:

C: "The coordinating conjunction but introduced a clause that requires a subject and a verb; this version of the sentence provides the verb were but omits the subject."

E: "the appositive an achievement is made into a direct object in the relative pronoun that . The noun Scandinavian kings is the subject of the verb attempted to repeat, which is modified by the adverbial phrase at the end of the sentence, but without success."

Then by the same token can I say out of the following two sentences 1 is correct, but 2 is not?

1. They did get there, but not on time. (correct, since "but not on time" is an adverbial modifier)
2. They tried to get there on time, but didn't. (incorrect since ", but didn't." is a clause that has a verb but is missing the subject: hence incomplete.)

A little confused if that is the case, because I thought 2 was correct. I thought the subject "they" that is eliminated in the 2nd clause is understood.

Please clarify. Thanks!

[RonPurewal]

your examples #1 and #2 are both fine.

the problem in (c) is the "it", which you can't use in a modifier that's still describing the same thing. here are some simpler examples that illustrate the point.

I was reading a book that had just been printed and that no one else had read
--> correct. note that the whole modifier describes "book".

I was reading a book that had just been printed and that no one else had read it
--> incorrect. the "it" here is stranded, because the modifier is already trying to describe "book".

I was reading a book that had just been printed; no one else had read it
--> correct. now that the second part is an entirely different clause (separated by the semicolon), it's appropriate to use "it" to refer to the noun in the first clause.

[parthian7]

thanks! great explanation.

but what do you say about GMATPrep's explanation on C:

"The coordinating conjunction but introduced a clause that requires a subject and a verb; this version of the sentence provides the verb were but omits the subject."

I thought we had a takeaway there..but now that you say both my examples are fine (also the one with a verb, but without a subject in the 2nd clause: similar to what we have in C) I'm even more confused..

Thanks again!

[gmatwork]

""I was reading a book that had just been printed and that no one else had read it
--> incorrect. the "it" here is stranded, because the modifier is already trying to describe "book"."" ---From Ron's post as above.

I didn't really don't get the explanation very well for C, D and E.

C - I think C is wrong because 'but' is playing the role of a coordinating conjunction and needs a subject and verb both followed. Missing Subject - problem

D - Not sure what is going on here??? What is "that" referring to?

E - I think but is used as a preposition (in the prepositional modifier - but without success - This modifier is Adverbial modifier for the preceding clause.

Still little bit confused about C, D and E.

[isha.mehta24]

c. ', but' is a coordinating conjunction used to connect two ICs. for an clause to be an IC there must be a subject and its verb. In c. verb is present but subject is precluded.
d. there is no clear referent for 'that' , and it should be placed near to achievement.

e. 'but' can be used as a conjunction, to join contrasting ideas; as a preposition, can mean except ( Everybody came but John) ; as a coordinating conjunction, used to join to ICs. Here, ', but without success' is an adverbial modifier, modifying the preceding clause- an event.

[tim]

thanks! great explanation.

but what do you say about GMATPrep's explanation on C:

"The coordinating conjunction but introduced a clause that requires a subject and a verb; this version of the sentence provides the verb were but omits the subject."

I thought we had a takeaway there..but now that you say both my examples are fine (also the one with a verb, but without a subject in the 2nd clause: similar to what we have in C) I'm even more confused..

Thanks again!

one way to look at C is that it is incorrect because of the inclusion of the "it" and the comma. without these, the "but" clause would be fine and would not require a subject..

[tim]

Isha, you are correct for the most part, aside from what i mentioned about C in my post above. Priyanka, let us know if you need further help on this one..

[vikram4689]

i guess new learning from this official question is that we should no longer eliminate options only on the basis that "comma+but" can join independent clauses only.

i think that, similarly, this finding would hold true for "for" as well

[tim]

good summary, although you were never supposed to eliminate a comma-but just because there weren't two independent clauses. if you've been doing this erroneously, i'm glad to see you understand why you shouldn't now..

[vikram4689]

i used to do so because VR Blue book mentions in Q86 that two IC’s should be separated by ", and" and that rule is derived from ",FANBOYS" rule .. see explanation for option a)

[jlucero]

I don't have the Blue Verbal book in front of me, but the difference in separating IC's with AND vs BUT could be in terms of the meaning of the sentence as well. Plus I don't believe the GMAT ever explicitly mentions questions wrong because of a comma misusage. It's always a comma misusage combined with meaning change or run-on sentence.

[aditya8062]

can RON plz help me with this
THERE is a rule in your manhattan book edition 4 sc page no :190
i am copying that rule here : do not use a comma before "and " to seperate two verbs that have the same subject .either eliminate the comma or add a subject to the second verb ,creating a second main clause
examples : wrong : earl walked to school ,and later ate his lunch
right : earl walked to school and later ate lunch
right : earl walked to school ,and later he ate lunch
now my doubt is can this rule of "AND " BE APPLIED TO ALL OTHER FANBOYS ?
also if ur answer is yes then my second doubt is can we eliminate option C USING THIS RULE FOR "BUT "
coz option c uses comma +but + verb .so that means its defying that rule (which is mentioned for "and " in ur book )

[RonPurewal]

the comma thing is not an absolute rule.
nor, luckily, does the gmat test punctuation in the first place, so you needn't worry about it.

see here:
post70164.html#p70164

[270699172]

Hi Ron,
I"˜m so confused. in the correct answer, "but" is followed by "without success", just a phrase. You have said "but" must be followed by a clause unless it connects two same structures. But option A does not meet the two conditions.
Thanks in advance!

[RonPurewal]

Hi Ron,
I"˜m so confused. in the correct answer, "but" is followed by "without success", just a phrase. You have said "but" must be followed by a clause unless it connects two same structures. But option A does not meet the two conditions.
Thanks in advance!

well, technically, "without success" and "later in the century" are both modifying the previous action here, so you're still covered there.

but, you do have a point here: there are certainly structures in the greater written english language in which "but" doesn't connect parallel structures. e.g.,
She eats junk food, but only on weekends.
the question (which is still unanswered, as far as i'm aware) is whether GMAC would countenance such constructions. if you have any solid evidence either way, i'd love to see it.