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Mymisc
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Re:

by Mymisc Thu Oct 28, 2010 9:38 pm

eyunni Wrote:Instructors, a question here.

In the above choice (E), is it correct to say X did Y, also doing Z?

Should it not be : X did Y, doing Z?

Is the use of 'also' correct here, if not redundant?


I understand Ron's explanation that (E) strips 'the act of congress' of a necessary modifier, I also understand Emily's explanation that "X made Y, establishing Z" has unintended meaing.

I don't get the point whether the structure in (E) "X did Y, ALSO doing Z" is acceptable in some situation, such as "She baked a cake, ALSO making a pie."--is "also" correctly used here?

Thanks!
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Re: Re:

by RonPurewal Fri Oct 29, 2010 7:07 am

Mymisc Wrote:I don't get the point whether the structure in (E) "X did Y, ALSO doing Z" is acceptable in some situation, such as "She baked a cake, ALSO making a pie."--is "also" correctly used here?

Thanks!


remember that the word "also" is just an adverb. therefore, GRAMMATICALLY, this word is insignificant; if the grammar of the sentence created by removing "also" is correct, then the grammar of this version will also be correct.

however, the word "also" must create a logical MEANING as well: we must be talking about some other action or consequence that is of the same type as something else mentioned in the sentence. (notice, as is the case for any other discussion of meaning, you must consider the meaning of the sentence with all modifiers intact; "eliminating modifiers" is a technique that only applies to purely grammatical considerations.)
in addition to this consideration of meaning -- which is dictated by "also" -- the other constructions in the sentence must also work in terms of meaning. for instance, a COMMA -ING modifier must still have the sort of meaning generally required by such modifiers.

let's check:

GRAMMAR:
in your example, the removal of "also" creates a COMMA -ING type modifier; since that's a legitimate type of modifier, it follows that the grammar of your example (with the cakes and pies) is fine.

MEANING:
the cakes and pies example fails here; "making a pie" does not actually modify the action of the preceding clause. (since it's a separate action, the sentence would be better written with a parallel structure containing the signal "and": she baked a cake and also made a pie.)

here's a sentence in which this sort of construction is used correctly in both senses (grammar and meaning):
in today's game Núñez broke the Peñarol club record for goals in one half by scoring 4 times before halftime, also setting an Uruguayan national record with the same feat.
--> not the most beautiful sentence in the world, but at least correct.
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Re: Tough SC: Approved April 24, 1800, the act of Congress that

by Mymisc Mon Nov 15, 2010 9:37 pm

Now I understand! Thank you for filling the gap for me!
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Re: Tough SC: Approved April 24, 1800, the act of Congress that

by RonPurewal Thu Nov 25, 2010 5:08 am

Mymisc Wrote:Now I understand! Thank you for filling the gap for me!


sure -- glad we could help
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Re: Tough SC: Approved April 24, 1800, the act of Congress that

by peirong_xiao Mon May 30, 2011 4:05 am

Bothering me here, go through all the posts, I still not get the main structure in A. My understanding of A is:
the act (that Ved,also Ved)... Seem to be a segment to me.
Does the main verbel here is "established "? the act also established...
then "also" in the sentence is odd here ??
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Re: Tough SC: Approved April 24, 1800, the act of Congress that

by RonPurewal Tue Jun 07, 2011 6:58 am

peirong_xiao Wrote:Bothering me here, go through all the posts, I still not get the main structure in A. My understanding of A is:
the act (that Ved,also Ved)... Seem to be a segment to me.


do you mean "fragment"? (this is not a fragment -- as you can conclude from the fact that it's the official answer to the problem)

note that the construction "that verbed" is just a modifier that modifies the word "act". modifiers are disposable in considering the grammatical structure of a sentence, so you're left with "the act also verbed". that's a complete sentence that is not problematic.

then "also" in the sentence is odd here ??


it's not odd -- the word "also" just serves to underscore the idea that we are making two statements about the same thing.
for instance:
Concordia College, the school from which my friend graduated in Minnesota, also has campuses in Nebraska and Wisconsin.
--> here, "also" again serves to underscore the idea that we are making an additional statement about concordia college.
the modifier suggests that this information (there's a campus in minnesota from which my friend graduated) is already known; hence this information is not put in parallel with the other information (which is presented in a way that suggests that it's new to the reader/listener).
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Re: Tough SC: Approved April 24, 1800, the act of Congress that

by shengfangqiji33 Tue Oct 11, 2011 3:43 am

hi,instructors,i have a question.

<Modifier>,<Modifier><Subject>
is this form definitely wrong in SC?

THANKS IN ADVANCE.
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Re: Tough SC: Approved April 24, 1800, the act of Congress that

by RonPurewal Sat Oct 29, 2011 6:16 am

shengfangqiji33 Wrote:hi,instructors,i have a question.

<Modifier>,<Modifier><Subject>
is this form definitely wrong in SC?

THANKS IN ADVANCE.


no, it's perfectly possible to write a sentence with that kind of form. for example:
last night, after sixteen achingly long years of her childhood had passed, melanie got behind the wheel of a car for the first time.
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Re: Tough SC: Approved April 24, 1800, the act of Congress that

by thanghnvn Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:05 am

I want to comment.
in this question, gmat test us to realize the relation between 2 verbs, "make" and "establish". The correct relation is in A. Other relations in other choices are incorrect.

this test , test of relations between 2 verbs appears in all-is-underlined questions frequently and considered hard.
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Re: Tough SC: Approved April 24, 1800, the act of Congress that

by RonPurewal Mon Nov 28, 2011 8:13 am

thanghnvn Wrote:I want to comment.
in this question, gmat test us to realize the relation between 2 verbs, "make" and "establish". The correct relation is in A. Other relations in other choices are incorrect.


the relationship between those two verbs in choice (c) is also fine -- in fact, it's the same relationship as in choice (a). however, that choice happens not to be a complete sentence.

this test , test of relations between 2 verbs appears in all-is-underlined questions frequently and considered hard.


practically every problem in the SC section will require you to establish one or more relationships between the elements of the sentence. in fact, until one understands how the elements in the sentence should to be related to each other, it's impossible to tell whether grammar is correct or incorrect.
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Re: Tough SC: Approved April 24, 1800, the act of Congress that

by ray.30 Sun Dec 18, 2011 2:18 pm

shengfangqiji33 Wrote:hi,instructors,i have a question.

<Modifier>,<Modifier><Subject>
is this form definitely wrong in SC?

THANKS IN ADVANCE.


Modifier + Modifier + subject is preferred in GMAT. OG says since the subject is closer to verb this is a better construct.
Check OG-12 # 105. Beatrix Potter "allows the subject, Beatrix Potter, to be united with the verb"
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Re: Tough SC: Approved April 24, 1800, the act of Congress that

by RonPurewal Sun Dec 25, 2011 10:43 pm

ray.30 Wrote:
shengfangqiji33 Wrote:hi,instructors,i have a question.

<Modifier>,<Modifier><Subject>
is this form definitely wrong in SC?

THANKS IN ADVANCE.


Modifier + Modifier + subject is preferred in GMAT. OG says since the subject is closer to verb this is a better construct.
Check OG-12 # 105. Beatrix Potter "allows the subject, Beatrix Potter, to be united with the verb"


basically, you should try to get corresponding stuff as close together as possible. that's also the more general principle behind problems like og12 #107 -- your head will explode if you try to find black-and-white rules for a problem like that one, but, if you just think in terms of "i need to put stuff next to what it's talking about", it's much easier to see why the correct answer is better than the others.
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Re: Tough SC: Approved April 24, 1800, the act of Congress that

by jp.jprasanna Sun Jan 22, 2012 3:59 pm

Hi Ron - Please correct me if im worng - I simply knocked out D because of the modifier issue

D. Approved April 24, 1800, making provision for the removal of the government of the United States to the new federal city, Washington, D.C., the act of Congress also established

Here - What was Approved April 24, 1800 should be act of congress not provision hence D WRONG!? Am I right?

Als If E were to be rephrased

ORGINAL
Approved April 24, 1800, the act of Congress made provision for the removal of the government of the United States to the new federal city, Washington, D.C., also establishing

Modified

Approved April 24, 1800, the act of Congress made provision for the removal of the government of the United States to the new federal city, Washington, D.C., also estabilished - This version will be correct right!?
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Re: Tough SC: Approved April 24, 1800, the act of Congress that

by tim Mon Jan 30, 2012 3:05 am

your analysis of D is incorrect. Ron explained why D is wrong above; please refer to his explanation..

as for changing E, i would caution you against ever asking "what if" questions about changing parts of verbal questions, because there are often several interconnected parts that cannot be fully accounted for by a single change. just focus on why the right answer is right and why all the wrong answers are wrong..
Tim Sanders
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Re: Tough SC: Approved April 24, 1800, the act of Congress that

by thanghnvn Thu Mar 08, 2012 10:23 am

I agree that A is best. I will eliminate b.

but, pls help

why B is wrong. I am uneasy with "was approved " and "making" but do not know why.