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shankar245
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Re: The Anasazi settlements at Chaco Canyon were built

by shankar245 Sun Aug 26, 2012 1:12 am

The Anasazi settlements at Chaco Canyon were built on a spectacular scale with more than 75 carefully engineered structures, of up to 600 rooms each, connected by a complex regional system of roads.


Hello Ron,

This is the correct sentence.

The clarification i have is this

Punjab is the India's richest state, with annual per capita income of $4599.

Here with modifies India's richest state i.e punjab.
this is okay,

In the correct sentence the modifier "with...structures" modifies the settlements.How do we ensure grammatically that it modifies only the settlements and nothing else

Logically though, yeah it can modify only the settlement.

Also is there a difference between

,with and with?

Please help!
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Re: The Anasazi settlements at Chaco Canyon were built

by RonPurewal Sun Aug 26, 2012 2:52 am

shankar245 Wrote:
The Anasazi settlements at Chaco Canyon were built on a spectacular scale, with more than 75 carefully engineered structures, of up to 600 rooms each, connected by a complex regional system of roads.


this is the actual correct version of the sentence; note that there is a comma in front of "with".
i believe that the original poster mistranscribed the problem somewhat. the underline should start at "scale"; some of the choices have a comma, while others don't.


Here with modifies India's richest state i.e punjab.


generally, when you have comma + prep phrase, that modifier should describe the whole idea of the clause that precedes it. i.e., it's describing the notion that punjab is the richest state, not just describing the state itself.

as another example, if you had the following sentence --
punjab is india's richest state, with an area of xxxxx square miles
-- it would be incorrect, because the modifier doesn't have anything to do with punjab's status as india's richest state. (if the modifier just had to describe the state itself, it would technically be fine.)

In the correct sentence the modifier "with...structures" modifies the settlements.How do we ensure grammatically that it modifies only the settlements and nothing else


given the above (and given the way in which the correct answer is actually punctuated), this modifier likewise describes the entire idea that precedes it.

,with and with?

Please help!


if there's a comma, the modifier should describe the entire preceding clause. if there isn't one, it should describe only the noun or action that precedes it.

in the latter case, you may have to use common sense to decide whether the modifier describes a noun or an action. for instance,
i read the book on the subway --> here, "on the subway" describes the action of reading the book, not the book itself.
i read the book on the table --> here, "on the table" describes the book.
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Re: The Anasazi settlements at Chaco Canyon were built

by shankar245 Sun Aug 26, 2012 3:37 am

okay so the incorrect question was the root cause of all the issue!.
Your detailed response has made the understanding better though.


As always , Your replies are the best!

Thanks
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Re: The Anasazi settlements at Chaco Canyon were built

by jnelson0612 Sun Aug 26, 2012 1:24 pm

Good! :-)
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Re: The Anasazi settlements at Chaco Canyon were built

by divineacclivity Sun Sep 30, 2012 3:08 am

RonPurewal Wrote:
jp.jprasanna Wrote:So can i take it as a rule that any nonessential modifier set off by commas ('of up to 600 rooms each'), which can be eliminated to check what modifiers are attached to the main clause??


nope. you have to think about which things are describing which other things.

* it's possible that both modifiers are describing the same noun, as in the example above. in that case, well, you have to put one of them before the other one (since you can't draw a sentence that looks like a probability tree), so you get the kind of structure that exists in (b).

* it's also possible that the second modifier describes something in the first modifier.
e.g.,
In the fourth lane is Tony Cardinale, the son of Vinny and Alessandra Cardinale, two former Olympic swimmers from Italy.
in this case, two former... is describing vinny and alessandra, not tony.


here there is a issue of meaning [each structure had its own system of roads which is not the intended meaning ]
but from grammar point of view the parallelism of OK right? [prepositional phrase || with prepositional phrase ]


yes.


Thanks. The explanation is very useful.
One doubt here in the following part of the sentence:
structures, of upto 600 rooms each
, connected by a system of roads
Both the modifiers are modifying "structures" and the second one could be modifying something in the first modifier as well, right?
So, how would you decide which one it is modifying? Based on logical connection?

Thank you.
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Re: The Anasazi settlements at Chaco Canyon were built

by RonPurewal Sun Oct 07, 2012 3:33 am

divineacclivity Wrote:Both the modifiers are modifying "structures" and the second one could be modifying something in the first modifier as well, right?
So, how would you decide which one it is modifying? Based on logical connection?

Thank you.


yes, it is sometimes necessary to use common sense to make distinctions like this one.
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Re: The Anasazi settlements at Chaco Canyon were built

by nycgirl212 Thu Mar 07, 2013 6:37 pm

resurrecting this old thread regarding a question that has not been asked.

I chose answer B (the difference between A and B was the word "were") because I read it as "the Anasazi settlements........... were connected"

From reading the thread discussion, it seems as though the it was the structures that were connected. I do not see how its not the "settlements" that were connected.
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Re: The Anasazi settlements at Chaco Canyon were built

by RonPurewal Sat Mar 09, 2013 10:41 pm

nycgirl212 Wrote:resurrecting this old thread regarding a question that has not been asked.

I chose answer B (the difference between A and B was the word "were") because I read it as "the Anasazi settlements........... were connected"

From reading the thread discussion, it seems as though the it was the structures that were connected. I do not see how its not the "settlements" that were connected.


the principle here is, basically, "modifiers describe what's close to them".
there are some exceptions (for modifiers that can describe entire clauses, etc), but, in general, there you go.

in any case, you got the correct answer to this one, so, nice.
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Re: The Anasazi settlements at Chaco Canyon were built

by divineacclivity Wed Jun 12, 2013 11:29 pm

Hi Ron,

I rejected option A & B at first because "with more than 75 .." made the sentence sound like "Anasazi settlements were build along side 75 structures". Could you please help me understand what exactly it is modifying & why "with more than 75.." is correct?
thanks in advance
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Re: The Anasazi settlements at Chaco Canyon were built

by RonPurewal Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:52 am

divineacclivity Wrote:Hi Ron,

I rejected option A & B at first because "with more than 75 .." made the sentence sound like "Anasazi settlements were build along side 75 structures". Could you please help me understand what exactly it is modifying & why "with more than 75.." is correct?
thanks in advance


"with" can also be used to introduce a component or feature of something.
for instance, if i am looking to buy "a car with air-conditioning", then the air-conditioning is a feature of the car (i.e., i am clearly not looking to buy a car and also a separate air-conditioner).

you can also use "with" to modify the previous verb/clause (e.g., All of our cars come with air-conditioning). this is what's happening here.
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Re: The Anasazi settlements at Chaco Canyon were built

by HanzZ Mon Jul 29, 2013 8:23 pm

Hello Ron,

After reading your posts, I now understand the correct use of 'with'. However, I have a question regarding the prepositional phrase 'of up to 600 rooms each'. Since it's also set of by a comma, why cannot we interpret it as the second modifier that modifies how spectacular the scale is? I mean it seems we have established that the number of rooms describes 'structure'; however, it also seems to make sense to describe the 'spectacular scale' by mentioning the number of rooms.

Maybe to put it another way, can 'of' be used as an adverbial modifier like 'with' to modify a preceding clause? I cannot think of any example though.

Thanks for your kind reply.
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Re: The Anasazi settlements at Chaco Canyon were built

by mcmebk Fri Aug 02, 2013 2:44 pm

RonPurewal Wrote:
pmal04 Wrote:Hi Ron,
In choice B, two modifiers are not connected by and. is that ok?
I was expecting something like '..of up to 600 rooms each and conneted...'
Can you please comment?
Thanks in advance,


nope, that would be incorrect.

the current form is the correct modifier, because it's modifying the 75 structures (of up to 600 rooms each).

if you added "and", then that would lock the following word, connected, into a parallel structure.
the problem is that "connected" is a past participle, and the only other word in the sentence that could be parallel to it is the past participle "built".

so, by adding "and", you'd be unwittingly creating the following parallel structure:

The Anasazi settlements at Chaco Canyon were
built on a spectacular scale with more than 75 carefully engineered structures, of up to 600 rooms each, and
connected by a complex regional system of roads.

this is wrong, since it implies that the settlements themselves were connected by a system of roads. it's the structures that were thus connected.


Hi Ron

You said in the structure: Comma + Verb-ed, it almost always modify the subject in the preceeding clause:

I made peace with John, tired of all the fighting and quarrels between us.

While the structure Verb-ed always modify the preceeding noun:

I refused to make peace with John tired of all the fighting and quarrels between us.

And in this question, since the modifier "connected by" is set off by a comma that belongs to another non-essential modifier, how do you decide whether it modifies the "structures" or "The settlements"?

Thank you Ron.
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Re: The Anasazi settlements at Chaco Canyon were built

by tafangqichong Tue Aug 06, 2013 10:37 am

RonPurewal Wrote:
divineacclivity Wrote:Both the modifiers are modifying "structures" and the second one could be modifying something in the first modifier as well, right?
So, how would you decide which one it is modifying? Based on logical connection?

Thank you.


yes, it is sometimes necessary to use common sense to make distinctions like this one.



Hi, RON!

why "connected by a complex regional system of roads" cannot modify "of up to 600 rooms each"?
rooms are plural noun, and i think "each" refers to "structure", so IMO rooms can be modified by connected. Could you pls tell me why i am wrong? THX!
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Re: The Anasazi settlements at Chaco Canyon were built

by RonPurewal Mon Aug 19, 2013 6:30 am

tafangqichong Wrote:why "connected by a complex regional system of roads" cannot modify "of up to 600 rooms each"?
rooms are plural noun, and i think "each" refers to "structure", so IMO rooms can be modified by connected. Could you pls tell me why i am wrong? THX!


well, this is where common sense comes into play.
just think about the context: obviously, the individual rooms are not connected by roads. what's connected by roads? well, the structures are.
so, this interpretation is off the table right away, because it's not sensible.
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Re: The Anasazi settlements at Chaco Canyon were built

by flbibi Sun Aug 25, 2013 5:30 am

RonPurewal Wrote:
rschunti Wrote:- you can't say 'each that had...' (can't follow 'each' with a relative pronoun - if you're going to use a relative pronoun, it has to come directly after the thing it's trying to modify)


Hi, Ron.
I have a question about "each that" here. Can each be used as an appositive of "structures", if we eliminate of up to... ,and thus be followed by "that" to introduce a relative clause?
I rewrite the sentence and eliminate other errors as follows:

The Anasazi settlements were built on a spectacular scale, with more than 75 carefully engineered structures, each that were connected by a complex regional system of roads.

I mean, in this case, each that seems wordy, and it looks like a sentence with only a subject, and distorts the sentence's original meaning, but I would like to know whether each can be used as appostive in the end of sentence to emphasize every structures were connected.

Thanks!!