Reduced clause, essential vs nonessential modifier

[duyng9989]

Hi:

I have 2 questions about the usage of reduced modifier:

1. Dropping that/which

Eg:
The girl who is sitting in the fence is Mary
The girl sitting in the fence is Marry!

In this sentence, "who is" is reduced and replaced by sitting
The book that was placed on the table is mine
The book placed on the table is mine

In this sentence, "that was" is reduced and replaced by placed.

What is the rule for reduced modifier clause? What is the rule of dropping "THAT, WHICH" in the sentence?

I am asking the question because I am seeing this problem:
Q133 OG12:
Last week local shrimpers held a news conference to take some credit for the resurgence of rate turtle, saying that their compliance with laws requiring (vs that require) turtle excluder devices on shrimp nets is protecting adult sea turtles.

What are the different between requiring vs that require? if any

Similar problem:
Q 111 OG 12:

Construction of the Roman Colosseum, which was officially known as the Flavian Amphitheater, began in A.D. 69 during the reign of Vespasian, was completed a decade later.

vs Construction of the Roman Colosseum, known as the ..., began in AD69 during the reign of..., was completed a decade later.

2. Essential vs non-essential modifier
Another problem is how to determine the essential vs nonessential modifier. I know that essential and nonessential modifier are distinct in the way that non essential can be dropped without any problem of interpreting the sentence. But how can we know that?

Eg: What are the different in meaning between:

Musicians of the 17th century often enjoyed baroque music THAT during the time was prominent primarily because of the works of Bach

vs
Musicians of the 17th century often enjoyed baroque music, which was prominent during the time primarily because of the works of Bach?

Another problem:

Tim Ferris wrote the 4-hour workweek, an eye-opening book that made it to the New York Times Best Seller list

vs Tim Ferris wrote the 4-hour workweek, which made it to the New York Times best Seller List.

[duyng9989]

I have another question:

Does the reduced clause (without that) is preferable to the "full version"?

for example: Og12 Q133:
Last week local shrimpers held a news conference to take some credit for the resurgence of the rare turtle, saying that their compliance with laws that require turtle excluder devices on shrimp nets protect adult sea turtles

That is choice C incorrect answer. The OG explaination says that "that require introduces unnecessary wordiness". Correct answer is "laws requring..."

Ron/ Stacey : Could you please confirm?

Thank you?

[RonPurewal]

Hi:

I have 2 questions about the usage of reduced modifier:

1. Dropping that/which

Eg:
The girl who is sitting in the fence is Mary
The girl sitting in the fence is Marry!

In this sentence, "who is" is reduced and replaced by sitting
The book that was placed on the table is mine
The book placed on the table is mine

In this sentence, "that was" is reduced and replaced by placed.

What is the rule for reduced modifier clause? What is the rule of dropping "THAT, WHICH" in the sentence?

this won't be tested on the exam. if you see this type of thing, then look for something else!

I am asking the question because I am seeing this problem:
Q133 OG12:
[deleted -- OG is a banned source. PLEASE do not quote OG problems, even partially.
it's ok to put the problem numbers, but do not quote the text.]

What are the different between requiring vs that require? if any

as far as a gmat test taker is concerned, there's no difference.

on that problem, the choice with "that require" has a big fat error of subject-verb agreement; that difference is just there to distract you from the prize.

Similar problem:
Q 111 OG 12:

[deleted -- do not quote the OG! please read the forum rules -- thank you]

2. Essential vs non-essential modifier
Another problem is how to determine the essential vs nonessential modifier. I know that essential and nonessential modifier are distinct in the way that non essential can be dropped without any problem of interpreting the sentence. But how can we know that?

Eg: What are the different in meaning between:

Musicians of the 17th century often enjoyed baroque music THAT during the time was prominent primarily because of the works of Bach

vs
Musicians of the 17th century often enjoyed baroque music, which was prominent during the time primarily because of the works of Bach?

we've never seen an official problem that tests this difference.
(if you don't know music history, then both of the above sentences are reasonable -- the former if only the pieces actually influenced by bach were popular; the latter if all baroque music became popular as a result of bach's influence.)

in the unlikely event that the difference is ever tested, they'll test it on a sentence where the difference is completely obvious. (e.g., there's only one Barack Obama, so, if you see a modifier that describes Barack Obama, then it should be set off by commas.)

[RonPurewal]

I have another question:

Does the reduced clause (without that) is preferable to the "full version"?

for example: Og12 Q133:
Last week local shrimpers held a news conference to take some credit for the resurgence of the rare turtle, saying that their compliance with laws that require turtle excluder devices on shrimp nets protect adult sea turtles

"compliance ... protect"
subject doesn't agree with verb.

don't worry about "requiring" vs "that require"; as far as you're concerned, that's a non-difference.

[duyng9989]

Thank you Ron for your explanation.

I asked that question because when I tried some GMAT questions from internet. I encountered that issue.

I will not post any Official Guide Related question on this forum anymore. Sorry for using the ban source.

[tim]

Please be EXTREMELY wary of questions you get off the internet. If you cannot verify their source with 100% accuracy (and verify that the source itself is trustworthy), you could be harming yourself by studying from questions that are flawed. Stick to materials that come directly from the GMAT or Manhattan GMAT (directly out of the books or off the company websites, NOT quoted by someone else on a random webpage) if you want to be safe!

[duyng9989]

Sorry. I dont want to quote source from different GMATprep website. The Baroque music question I get from GMATPill's SC question. It is quite a reliable resource.

Here is the source:
http://www.gmatpill.com/gmat-practice-t ... stion/2056

GMATpill says that That is restrictive modifier. If you use THAT, the sentence mean that there are many kinds of "baroque music". If we use which, it only refers to Bach's style baroque music.

My question here is that whether the distinction between That and Which really matter in GMAT. Ron said that GMAT will not test the distinction between Which and That and there were no different between That and which in two sentences. I would like to get confirmation.

Thank you.

[Willy]

Ron said that GMAT will not test the distinction between Which and That and there were no different between That and which in two sentences.

If Ron (or MGMAT team) has said this, accept this a holy truth and move on my friend! :)

[jlucero]

Ron's done more work on the OG than anyone except (but not guaranteed) the publisher. I'm going to back up pretty much anything that he says about rules of sentence correction, but I do want to point out his qualifier again:

in the unlikely event that the difference is ever tested, they'll test it on a sentence where the difference is completely obvious. (e.g., there's only one Barack Obama, so, if you see a modifier that describes Barack Obama, then it should be set off by commas.)

[tim]

Sorry. I dont want to quote source from different GMATprep website. The Baroque music question I get from GMATPill's SC question. It is quite a reliable resource.

duyng9989, I don't know what more any of us instructors can do to convince you of the right way to study for the GMAT, but for the benefit of other students reading this, I will reiterate what many of us instructors have stated repeatedly on these forums: Unless you get an endorsement of a third-party question source from one of us, you should be VERY VERY wary of using them for ANY purpose whatsoever in your studying. The GMAT itself is of course legit, and every one of us instructors would also endorse Manhattan GMAT's materials of course. :) ANYTHING else in my opinion should be considered suspect and could actually HARM you in your preparation for the test.

[NaeemH22]

processes can begin. processes can end.

[KumarR863]

For option C:As I know " , + and" should also have a subject when a new clause begins while the correct option doesn't mention the subject distinctively. For example the following sentence(similar to the correct option) is considered incorrect on GMAT:
-Jim washed the bedroom, and cleaned the window.
Although for parallelism and is necessary but if a new clause begins it should mention the subject separately? Am I correct?

[Sage Pearce-Higgins]

I'm not sure which option C you're referring to, but I think I can clear up a couple of things about commas on GMAT.
1. I've never seen a GMAT problem test comma usage. As far as us instructors can tell, "correct" comma usage is simply too controversial and subjective for GMAT to be interested in it. That said, GMAT problems observe various comma conventions, such as using a comma before 'which'.
2. Another convention observed in GMAT problems is the Oxford comma: this is the use of a comma before 'and' in lists of three or more items, for (a correct) example 'Jason bought shoes, books, and a bag.'
3. There's some dispute about using a comma before 'and' (or other conjunctions) to separate two incomplete clauses, as in your example Jim washed the bedroom, and cleaned the window. Following the premise that GMAT doesn't test comma usage means that we couldn't eliminate this sentence. However, I'm pretty sure that GMAT sometimes uses a comma before and in such situations when the parallel elements are particularly long, for example SC 723 and SC 732 from OG 2019.