"plural X + preposition + Y, which have" - which refers X?

[rte.sushil]

According to me, this kind of construction (That If A goes then B comes became obvious) is correct? right?

1) you don't use "that IF X" b/c it's unidiomatic. That is used with a statement, not a condition (if X...)

What if the sentence is :

It became obvious that if A has to come then B has to go
is wrong?i don't find it wrong.Please confirm.

Isn't " if A has to come then B has to go" a statement that can be used with "that"

[RonPurewal]

1.) According to me, this kind of construction (That If A goes then B comes became obvious) is correct? right?

see, this is why it's best to stick with judging the answer choices that are actually in the problems -- this is another instance of "it's not wrong, but you won't see it."

i.e., yes, that construction is technically ok, but it's basically unreadable, and no decent writer would ever write it.
instead, you'd see that same idea rephrased into a different order, e.g., It became obvious that if A went away, then B would take its place.

and, no, there's nothing wrong with putting "that" in front of a clause starting with "if", as long as it's actually a legitimate clause.
for an official problem in which this happens, check out #38 in the OG verbal supplement (about a study on calves).

[SC312]

Ron,

Why is the option C) incorrect ?
I understand that although is a subordinating conjunction i.e "although" needs a subject and verb. But,as I see in one of the forums, a subordinate clause can omit a subject and verb when their presence is clearly understood.

Thanks

[jlucero]

Ron,

Why is the option C) incorrect ?
I understand that although is a subordinating conjunction i.e "although" needs a subject and verb. But,as I see in one of the forums, a subordinate clause can omit a subject and verb when their presence is clearly understood.

Thanks

Parallelism and Verb Usage: Sunspots (1) appear on the surface of the Sun as dark spots although (2) never sighted at the Sun's poles or equator. The second element here doesn't include a verb, as "sighted" would be an adjective if no "are" is included before it. This could be corrected with a "they are never sighted"

[SC312]

Joe/Ron

I understand the point that "sighted" is an adjective and the second portion of the sentence following although doesn't contain an active verb
My question is the verb not implied i.e the current option C) is in the reduced form of the actual sentence which should look like ...dark spots although <they are> never sighted at ...

Consider the following example of how another subordinating conjuction while , like although, is used :

Eg: A recent poll indicates that many people in the United States hold a combination of conservative and liberal political views; i.e., they denounce big government, saying government is doing too much and has become too powerful, while at the same time supporting many specific government programs for health care, education, and the environment.

Here also, after the while we don't have an active verb, but still the construction is correct.

Thanks

[jlucero]

That's a bit different example. In the question you posted, there is clear parallelism between "saying government is doing too much and has become too powerful, while at the same time supporting many specific government programs..."

In this sentence, there's nothing to make parallel to sighted. "Sunspots appear on the surface although never sighted" You could get away with changing the second part to a prepositional phrase, such as: "sunspots appear on the surface although not at the poles". Instead, A gives us two clear verbs to make parallel.

[SC312]

Thanks Joe

[RonPurewal]

awesome.

[xunzlyx]

the big problem with choice (e) is that the modifier creates an unacceptable change of meaning.
if you have
dark spots on the sun's surface, which have never been sighted...
then the problem is that the "which" modifier is actually talking about the spots described in the previous clause. in other words, this version of the sentence is inadvertently talking about the same spots seen on the sun's surface -- in other words, those SAME spots have not been seen on the poles or equator.
this is not the intended meaning. instead, the sentence is simply meant to say that the vortices in general have been seen on the surface of the sun, but that the same vortices in general have not been seen on the poles or at the equator.

the correct answer does not have this issue.
in the correct answer, you have a compound verb construction (are visible ... but have never been seen ...). the subject of this entire verb construction is "sunspots" (in general), as intended.

Hi RON,

Although you have explained clearly, I still do not grasp what you intend to say. "actually" " inadvertently" are too abstract for me to understand.

Do you mean that:
(A) tells one thing that there are only certain places sunspots will appear(on the surface not on poles or equators) 》》mainly concentrates on the difference of the locations

(c) tells two things:
first, the place sunspots will appear(the surface of the Sun);》》》
tells something about sunspots
second, sunspots have a quality that it will not appear on the poles or equator)》》》provides a means to help identify the sunspots.

Can you give another example regardless of this question to restate what you want to say if I do not understand in the way you tried to convey?

[RonPurewal]

hey,

Although you have explained clearly, I still do not grasp what you intend to say. "actually" " inadvertently" are too abstract for me to understand.

these aren't very abstract concepts -- "actually" means "in reality", and "inadvertently" means "not on purpose".

hmm

i'll just try to make another example:
James plays an alcoholic on stage, but has never even had a drink in real life.
--> this sentence makes sense.
james (presumably an actor) plays the role of an alcoholic in a play/movie/whatever, but james doesn't actually drink alcohol in real life.

James plays an alcoholic on stage, who has never even had a drink in real life.
--> this sentence doesn't make sense. it is inadvertently (= contrary to actual intentions) implying that the stage character has never had a drink before. (that's nonsense, since the stage character is an alcoholic.)

[soulwangh]

Here I have my first question in Manhattan!
I search the website and find some questions which have asked by others and still are not replied.
The questions are about choice C and D which have although-subclauses.
-------------------------------------
Ben Ku wrote:
Hi Stephen,

In regard to your question, ALTHOUGH is a subordinating conjunction. Basically that means that it joins clauses that have a subject and verb. In the problem listed, "although never sighted at" and "although never having been sighted at" in choices (C) and (D) do not have subjects.
Incorrect: Although late, Joey was able to complete the test.
Correct: Although Joey was late, he was able to complete the test.
------------------------------
Stephen Replied:
i have seen lots of although-subclause omitting subject and verb, whether in undelined part or no-underlined part. So i will post two examples, i think it is enought, from GMATPrep.

1#Although unhappy with the high rent her company was paying for its suburban office building, the chief executive recognized rental rates for buildings in the suburbs as far lower than it typically is for property that is located within the city limits.
2#Although eradicated in the United States, polio continues elsewhere and could be brought into the country by visitors.
----------------------------------

I have the same question as Stephen.
Can anyone please explain?

[RonPurewal]

Here I have my first question in Manhattan!
I search the website and find some questions which have asked by others and still are not replied.

What, exactly, is the question?

[soulwangh]

Here I have my first question in Manhattan!
I search the website and find some questions which have asked by others and still are not replied.

What, exactly, is the question?

Hi, Ron

Ben Ku and OE explain that Choice C and D are wrong because ALTHOUGH clause need a subject and verb.
However, as what I post above, some right sentences in prep and OG are Although clauses omitting subject and verb.

I feel confused and want to know some of the general rules about omitting.

Thanks, Ron.

[RonPurewal]

That's a good question. I thought of all the examples that came to mind, and here's the pattern I found.

If you just have "(al)though + adjective", it should come in one of the following 2 places:

1/
In front of the entire sentence
(Al)though exhausted from work, Sarah still played with the dogs for two hours when she got home.

2/
After the subject (usually I've seen just "though" here, not "although")
The two men, though not trained as pilots, were able to land the plane safely.

I can't think of any legitimate sentences that place it after the original sentence, so that seems to be the problem.

[soulwangh]

That's a good question. I thought of all the examples that came to mind, and here's the pattern I found.

If you just have "(al)though + adjective", it should come in one of the following 2 places:

1/
In front of the entire sentence
(Al)though exhausted from work, Sarah still played with the dogs for two hours when she got home.

2/
After the subject (usually I've seen just "though" here, not "although")
The two men, though not trained as pilots, were able to land the plane safely.

I can't think of any legitimate sentences that place it after the original sentence, so that seems to be the problem.

Thanks Ron! It is really helpful.