Past perfect tense use

[ankurb.iitb]

Hi

I am following verbal strategy SC guide. I was not able to understabd a couple of points in Verb, Tense, Mood , Voice tense can u plz elborate them

1)It says that the later past event does not need to be expressed with sime past. Just time and date ref can be used.

By 1945, the US had been at war for several years.
Can u expalin what are the two actions here and how this sentence can be expressed in simple structure? [Simple past and Past perfect] (P-110)

2) On P-109 it says that present perfect can be used to represent the notion of earlier action

she will pay you hen u have taken out the garbage.

Can u plz give some other examples for this usage and also can we express this notion using some other structure or it has to be present perfect?
Thanks
Ankur

[RonPurewal]

hi -

answers below.

note that verb tenses are EXTREMELY subtle and nuanced. for instance, in english, the tenses encode not only temporal order, but also such other things as completion and/or relevance. (for instance, you don't always use the past perfect when one action comes before another one; there also must be some sort of relevance. for instance, it's incorrect to say we had gone to the restaurant and then we went to the club, because going to the restaurant has no bearing or relevance on going to the club. instead, you'd just say we went to the restaurant, and then we went to the club.)

with this in mind, you will almost certainly find that it's better to MEMORIZE EXAMPLES of the different uses of verb tenses than to try to figure out exact rules that determine their use.
this is, in fact, what native speakers do when they learn how to use verb tenses. they don't think about rules at all (in fact, 99+% of native speakers would be completely unable to articulate the rules behind their use of different verb tenses!). they just know some uses that are right and wrong, and then build upon those foundational examples. you should do the same.

1)It says that the later past event does not need to be expressed with sime past. Just time and date ref can be used.

By 1945, the US had been at war for several years.
Can u expalin what are the two actions here and how this sentence can be expressed in simple structure? [Simple past and Past perfect] (P-110)

there aren't two actions here. that is, in fact, the whole point of this particular excerpt from the strategy guide: there are situations in which the "later" element doesn't have to be an action.

basically, if the "later" element is simply a TIME MARKER, and the "earlier" element is an action or state LEADING UP TO that time marker, then you should still use the past perfect.

your example fits this form perfectly: the later element is 1945 (a time marker), and the state mentioned (the US had been at war) is LEADING UP TO that time.

here's another one:
by the start of the 1991 track season, the men's long-jump record had stood for 23 years.
this is correct.
same deal: the "later" element is a time marker (1991), and the past perfect action (the record had stood) LEADS UP TO that time marker.

--

if this still confuses you, think about this:
almost all actions that can be expressed in the PRESENT PERFECT can be expressed in the PAST PERFECT if you shift them into the past.

here are some examples:
by now laura has certainly arrived in philadelphia.
--> switch to the past:
by 4:00pm today, laura had certainly arrived in philadelphia.

also:
(right now) this record has stood for 23 years.
--> switch to the past:
by 1991, that record had stood for 23 years.

2) On P-109 it says that present perfect can be used to represent the notion of earlier action

she will pay you hen u have taken out the garbage.

Can u plz give some other examples for this usage and also can we express this notion using some other structure or it has to be present perfect?

the idea here is that the perfect tense represents both COMPLETION and RELEVANCE.

for instance:
let's say you're a high school student, and you come up to me (your teacher), with a half-finished quiz in hand, and say "can i go to the restroom?"
and i say
ask me when you've finished the quiz.

note the sense of completion and relevance here. you must have finished the quiz (completion - the fact that you've completed the task is hugely important here), and that's what triggers my permission to go to the restroom (relevance).

again, this stuff is really, really complicated. you're much better off just remembering these examples, and deciding similar sentences in similar ways.

[erisgoldenapple]

Ron, I have another question for this sentence.
The strategy guide says :

right: she will pay you when you have taken out the garbage.
= She will pay you clearly after you take out the garbage and have proven it！

The action of taking out the garbage triggers the action of her paying. But, how can i get the meaning of "have proven it" in this example?

[RonPurewal]

Ron, I have another question for this sentence.
The strategy guide says :

right: she will pay you when you have taken out the garbage.
= She will pay you clearly after you take out the garbage and have proven it！

The action of taking out the garbage triggers the action of her paying. But, how can i get the meaning of "have proven it" in this example?

the point is that you'll get paid upon completion of the task; the whole "prove it" thing is probably just an attempt at injecting a bit of "conversational" language into the text.