Looking for GMAT help and study partner in MOntreal Quebec.

[D177]

Hi,

As much as my pride won't allow me to admit it...

I've tried in-class tutorials, online tutorials, self study, a private tutor (on and off for quite some while working full time..lets just say for a very looooooooong time)...and practiced with hundreds (if not thousands..yes really) of OFFICIAL GMAT questions but still cannot get the 600-630 score(really not high compared to many) I'm aiming for.....my actual score keeps hovering around 500..despite many different techniques and practice...can you please provide any ideas...or some advice/help?

Bit of background: I have two Bachelor degrees (one in Business, the other in Arts), and have taken courses such as Calculus and Statistics(and got through them with a some effort and help)...but honestly I have never put so much effort into an exam with so minimal results..this is nuts...I'm obviously doing something or thing(s) wrong!!!

Also, I'm looking for a study partner for GMAT..maybe 2-4 hrs per week..please contact me.

Thank you,

Dan

[StaceyKoprince]

Welcome! I'm sorry that this test is giving you so much trouble.

First: There's another folder here where people post to look for study partners, so I'd also post your message there. Are there things that you feel you are better at? You can offer to help others with those things in exchange for help on your weaker areas.

Okay, so let's dive into your data to figure out what's going on. Give me the full scores of your 2 most recent tests, both official (if applicable) and practice (tell me which practice tests they are). And tell me the dates you took these tests.

Read this:
https://www.manhattanprep.com/gmat/blog/2013/06/03/what-the-gmat-really-tests/

For more on that same topic:
https://www.manhattanprep.com/gmat/blog/2016/05/26/develop-a-business-mindset-to-maximize-your-roi-on-the-gmat/

Think about how what you've been doing does and doesn't match up with that and how you may need to change your approach accordingly. (And tell me what that is.)

Then, use the below to analyze your most recent 1-2 MPrep CATs (this should take you a minimum of 1 hour, and probably several hours):
https://www.manhattanprep.com/gmat/blog/2014/02/11/4-steps-to-get-the-most-out-of-your-cats-part-1/

Based on all of that, develop some hypotheses about what you think is going on. Then come back here and tell us (supporting your ideas with facts / relevant info where needed); we'll tell you where we agree with your assessment and where we have other ideas. And we'll use that to come up with a plan.

(Note: do share an analysis with us, not just the raw data. Your analysis should include a discussion of your buckets; you'll understand what buckets are when you read the last article. Part of getting better is developing your ability to analyze your results—figure out what they mean and what you think you should do about them!)

We'll figure this out!

[D177]

Hi Stacey,

Thank you for your reply! I appreciate the detailed reply and the study tools to help me!

Ok, so to answer your question...here are 2 of my practice GMAT scores (BTW..although taken 7 months apart..yield similar results):

1-Taken way back in January, 2019...Official GMAT CAT..my overall score was 470; Q-29 (16%), V-26(44%) **N.B. %..obviously means PERCENTILE**
2-Taken more recently; August 2019..Manhattan Prep..overall was 490; Q-32 (22%), V-26 (44%)...

N.B.: I work full time, study part-time (to complete 2nd bachelors), and although I saw my score increase on SC practice problems, my verbal on the CAT remains unchanged. FYI..I usually choose Verbal to begin my CAT because I am more comfortable with it...and my QUANT definitely needs improvement.

I have no major issues with timing (thankfully!); I have never ran out of time..but do find the ticker VERY, VERY stressful..which easily affects my anxiety and concentration...and I have been meditating more often to help with mindfulnes.

I am aiming for a score of 600, which in light of others isn't too high..but then again I have been struggling around in high 400's for longer than I would like to admit. Looking at the GMAT scoring grid, I can see myself rising from 44% to 52% in Verbal, but that would mean rising from 59% in Quant...I'm trying to be optimistic..but that seems like quite a stretch. A friend told me to do more difficult q's cause they boost your score, but you said to skip them if they seem too hard..can you please advise?

Honestly, my recurring weakness and errors (based on past CAT's and MP score diagnosis/generator) come from q's in 600-800 range, number properties, fractions, and venn diagrams..and fyi..I almost always get 300-500 level q's correct.

**Again, I feel a bit all over the place in terms of studying for material and find it hard to focus on specifics..if you or your team can magically help with this..I would appreciate it.**

I hope this information helps you..to basically help me!

Thank you again for your help, and hope you have a great day.

Dan

[StaceyKoprince]

Let's dig in.

First / overall: Do take the time to do the analysis described in the blog post that I linked last time. It's going to take some time—set aside a few hours this weekend to do it. I can give you *much* better advice with that analysis.

I have no major issues with timing (thankfully!); I have never ran out of time

Running out of time is only one way in which someone can have major timing issues. It's very common for people to finish the section on time and yet still have the data show major timing issues. When you do the analysis I talked about above, it will take you through how to check for all kinds of timing issues.

which easily affects my anxiety and concentration...and I have been meditating more often to help with mindfulnes.

Yes, these kinds of tests are really nervewracking! The mindfulness training is great. It will also help to really (a) understand how an adaptive test works, and (b) internalize that you actively do *not* want to try to get everything right on this kind of test. That's literally how to get a worse score (than you're capable of getting) on this test.

A big part of anxiety around a test like this is feeling like you must not be doing well because you're getting so many questions wrong since, in school, you were expected to get everything right. But on an adaptive test, *everyone* is getting a bunch of questions wrong. It's just how the test is built. Imagine if we were sitting in classroom (I'm your math teacher), and I kept saying, "Oh, you know how to do that problem? Okay, well let me give you this one next." And I'm specifically just ratcheting up the difficulty level until I find something that you can't do.

That's the algorithm's goal—to find your upper limit. (And your lower limit.) The test isn't evil (though I know it feels like it sometimes!). It's just trying to find both what you can do and what you can't do, so that it knows that it really has found the right scoring level for you. So I keep moving up or down that chain of possible difficulty levels as I see what you can handle.

So that means a few things. First, you're going to see a mix of difficulties ranging from "easy for you" to "hard for you." Second, the test starts off in a medium range. In order to earn harder questions, you can't miss very many of the easier or medium ones—so you don't want to rush those or be sloppy in your processes and make careless mistakes because that will prevent you from lifting your score. Third, it means that you'll always see some questions that are too hard for you, and your best option there is to be able to recognize that so you can let go of those quickly—guess and move on and use that time and mental energy elsewhere on the test.

Your friend recommended studying harder questions, but that's not a great use of your time. If you are already missing lower-level ones, you'll never earn those harder ones in the first place. Rather, you've got to get really good at everything that's at or below your knowledge / ability level so that you aren't losing points to careless mistakes or bad process or whatever. That will allow you to move up the chain a bit.

You've been studying for a long time but not seeing your score go up. There's a really good chance that you've got the most common timing problem I see, and it's really a decision-making problem at heart: You spend a bunch of your time and mental energy trying to get the "slightly too hard to really too hard" problems right, and then you make mistakes on things that you did know how to do but you were rushing or were just tired out mentally...and then your score goes nowhere.

When you do your test analysis, look for what we call "up and down" timing: You spend a lot of time on some problems and then rush on others to make up for it, so you end up with a bunch of problems that are under 1 minute or so and then a bunch that are over ~3 minutes. The longer ones are ones that you were probably going to miss anyway (too hard). And the fast ones are ones you might actually have gotten if you'd spent normal time.

There's another thing you need to know, which was in those articles I linked last time—but I didn't see you mentioning this in your reply, so you may need to read them again. The GMAT is what's called a "where you end is what you get" test. Your score is not an average of your performance across the entire section. Rather, it's literally where you are when the section ends. So it's very common for people to do really well for the first third or half or even two-thirds of the section...and then run out of steam (either time or mental energy or both) and have their scoring level drop at the end. And where you end is what you get.

So: Within whatever range of questions you can earn on a test right now, you're trying to make sure that you answer correctly anything that's easy or medium for you—basically, the things that you know you can get—so that you aren't losing ground by missing lower-level problems. And you're investing in some harder ones (but not all)—your strengths. And you're bailing fast on some of those harder ones so that you do have more time to invest on things that you can do with an extra 30 or 45 seconds—and so that you can maintain a steady score trajectory all the way to the end of the section vs. lifting up high but then crashing again before the section is over.

Thoughts on all of that? Also:
– Go do that full test analysis.
– When you post again to give me the results of that analysis, also tell me what study resources you have access to.

[D177]

Thank you again for your help!.

So...to answer your questions about my study sources; I use Manhattan Prep or official GMAC material. As much as I prefer hard copies, I got used to the digital(online) form of questions and study guides as well..**FYI....a big chunk of my stress is where to look or what to listen to..there is wayyy too much info out there about GMAT online..and it makes the process more complicated and stressful.**

Okay, so I did an analyis and followed your steps.. of my most recent CAT which was done a few weeks ago on Manhattan Prep..where I got 490. Detailed scores were in my second post (FYI) Did I give my best shot? No, maybe 84%ish....but still..I need to start seeing my scores in 500 range if I'm gonna continue..

It appears that the time I use is generally in the 'safe zone/within accepted limits' for the various questions. Rarely do I go over 3 minutes..but, yes you're right..I do sometimes waste time thinking 'ooh ooh, if I just take another min..I'll get it...BUT I"M GONNA START SKIPPING(Guessing) THESE GOING FORWARD.

I managed to divide my performance into three buckets: GREAT, Prioritize This and Ugh

GREAT : 300-500 prob solving,DS,RC and CR, and linear equations...I'm good with anything logical or practical!
PRIORITIZE THIS: 500-600 PS and CR, 600-700 CR, and 700-800 RC, Exponents, Rotts, Circles and Cylinders, Rates and Work, Fractions
UGH: 600-700 DS, 700-800 RC and CR, 600-700 RC, Number properties, divisibility and primes, overlapping sets,

Yes I admit...there have been a few CAT exams where they would throw SUPER easy questions at the end and because I ran out of steam or time..I would get them wrong...so you're right about that, but I don't think that's the main reason for my score being so low .

Quite honestly, and speaking of steam...I'm struggling to jump back into this...most people would have given up wayyy back given my work/score imbalance. Why did I keep going ? Well, I'm stubborn for one, I've overcome adversity many times before and I've come this far..so might as well get it over with!!! Nonetheless, I just need some way or method to see that my effort is MAKING A DIFFERENCE..and my energy(motivation) will come. The draining part is putting in so much work, money and effort and then seeing very little progress...anyways sorry I'm venting...I think you get my point and know how I feel.


Thank you again for your advice and help.

Hope you have a great week,

Dan

[D177]

Hi Stacey,

Thank you again for your reply and information. I appreciate your help!

So I read your article and took the time to analyze my most recent CAT which I took on MP and scored 490. (more details about this score are in an earlier post)

My timing for each question is generally within the guidelines, but I do have to be careful with running out of time/steam towards the end...cause it has happened a few times where I get to the end of a section, see a question that is not really challenging(I can answer it correctly), but I really don't have the energy do the little work required..or my brain feels fried and my memory is hazy...and i guess or make a careless mistake.

I (like many) also have a weakness for spending time on questions that I think I can get ..'just if i had a bit more time'-..but I will cease this attitude and just skip going forward..can i guess up to 10..or is 6-7 max each section for around 625 score? If I understood your articles and advice correctly...unless I can understand and figure out a problem within the first min or so..just guess and move on...correct?

But I get how it can affect my score... I can't just 'ease up' towards the end.

Also, too often in Verbal RC..some passages are soooo boring or complex that I will try 1 or 2 qs then skip the rest (guess them)..besides reading NY times or Economist..any tips for this?

Here are my buckets:

GREAT: 300-500 prob solving, DS and CR, linear equations and 500-600 RC
PRIORITIZE THIS: 500-600 prob solving, CR, exponents, roots, circles and cylinders, 700-800 RC
UGH: 600-700 DS, number properties, RC and 700-800 CR and RC

That's basically it for now, I am anxious to do another CAT with more emphasis on the few things I learned...and see how much it affects my score.

Thank you again for your help and time.

FYI..** not you..i'm guessing it's a tech thing, but this is the 3rd time I'm posting this message..every time I click submit..it doesn't accept it.. FYI for the tech team**

Dan

[StaceyKoprince]

Hello! I see your replies were getting caught in the spam filter for some reason. Sorry about that. I saw two in the spam filter but one that came through—I reinstated the first one of the ones from spam, but it looks like you're saying generally the same things in the second one, so I won't reinstate it. (Coming back to add: I just got to the end and saw your note. There's something about longer posts that makes them more likely to get caught. So if you find that happening, try splitting your post up into two or three shorter posts.)

So let's define some things before we talk details for bailing on questions.

(1) True Bail—I can tell within 20-30 seconds that I hate this topic or it's too hard or whatever, and I guess my favorite letter and move on. I do this 4-5 times per section in my weaker area (quant) and not as often in my (much) stronger area (verbal)—but I would say most people can get away with doing this 4-5 times in both sections.

(2) Educated Guesses—I tried it for a minute and it's just not coming together enough for me to feel confident I can get to the correct answer in another minute, but hey, I see a way to narrow down the answer choices in a credible way. (Estimation on quant, getting rid of answers with extreme words on an RC problem, etc.) So I'll go ahead and do what's needed to get rid of the definitely-wrong ones—as long as I'm not going over normal time on this one. No need to count these. Do as many as you'd like. (I don't even consider these bails at all. Since you only need about 60% accuracy on this test, getting rid of even just two wrong answers takes you decently far down the path.)

(3) Let It Go—I tried it for real but I got lost somewhere in the problem. I'm cutting my losses—I don't want to invest even more time in this business that is failing right now. No need to count these either; do what's needed.

Basically, I only keep track of my True Bails, and I do that to make sure I'm keeping a good balance. It's true that I don't want to do like 12—then I'm bailing too quickly. But I also don't want to have just 1 or 2—then I'm trying to do too much. So keeping track from the start helps to remind me that I actively want to bail sometimes.

Also: Most people won't do a True Bail until they're already behind on time. Don't wait until then! If you hit a problem that sucks for you (for whatever reason), bail! Even if it's problem #1. There's nothing wrong with having a little extra money in the bank to invest when a really good opportunity pops up.

For RC, I like to pretend that I'm trying to remember enough of the main idea of the topic to tell a friend who I know will actually be interested in that topic. I already like the biological science stuff myself, but I'm not a fan of various social science and physical science topics—and my eyes often glaze over on the business stuff. So I have specific people already in mind for those areas when I go into the test. I see a topic and think, oh, Chris would actually be really interested in this. I'll have to remember enough to tell him about it so he can go look it up himself later. That gets me through the main idea and general questions and it helps me to care just (barely) enough for the details (at least, for the few minutes when I'm still on the passage!).

Re: your buckets, some questions:

(1) You list some problem types by difficulty level (eg, 500-600 PS), but chances are good that you'll be ok on certain types of 500-600 PS problems but not others. So dig a little deeper into the data to figure that out more closely. For example, you might discover that you're okay on fractions but not on percents at that level.

(2) Speaking of percents, I don't see them listed anywhere in your buckets. These are the most common areas tested, so I'd like to know where you are with them:
– Fractions (bucket 2), percents, ratios
– linear equations (bucket 1) and exponents (bucket 2)
– stories testing any of the above (does your logical / practical thing extend to stories? difference if they give you real numbers vs. algebra in the story?)
– stats
– divisibility, pos/neg, odd/even (start with FoM here, since you listed divisibility in bucket 3)
– triangles, polygons, circles (note that circles are common but cylinders are not—so do study circles, but push cylinders to bucket 3)

SC: sentence structure, meaning, modifiers, parallelism
CR: find the assumption, strengthen, weaken
RC: inference, specific detail

(3) You have 700-800 RC in two buckets (2 and 3). Which is it? Also, given where we're at right now, I'd say anything 700+ level goes in bucket 3 (don't prioritize for now) simply because you have other lower-hanging fruit (easier problems) that you can work on first.

What study resources do you have? Do you have our books? OG? Interact? Other books or resources? Etc. (I know you've been studying a ton, but I don't know what you've been using.)

Finally, I hear you: You're burning out on this. Totally understandable. I'm glad that you're stubborn. I hope that the analysis helped you to see several things:
(1) You do have strengths! The news is not all-bad.
(2) There are issues around executive reasoning / decision-making / time management that are affecting your performance—and your score will get higher just by fixing those things alone, even if you don't get any better at the underlying material. Depending on the severity of the problem, I've seen people jump 40 to 80 points after fixing timing / decision-making issues alone—nothing else!
(3) Your ability level is higher than your score, but this decision-making stuff is pulling your score down. So job #1 is fixing your exec mindset so that your score reflects what you actually know.
(4) You do have work to do, but you don't have to become an expert at everything. Be strategic about what you focus on.

I think your immediate focus is really all about this decision-making stuff. If we can get you making better decisions such that you're using your mental energy appropriately (and therefore earning the points that you do know how to earn and not dropping at the end of the section), then two things will happen. First, your score will go up just from that. Second, you will have cleared this roadblock such that, when you do learn new actual skills / material, you'll be able to see the result in your score.

[D177]

Just a quick word to say thank you for your time, help and words of encouragement! They are very much appreciated!

Take care and have a nice weekend,

Dan

[StaceyKoprince]

You are very welcome. You have a great weekend, too!

[D177]

Okay, so I gotta tell you...

I recently took the Manhattan Prep CAT with your new guidelines and went from a 490-560! Now whether this was due to strategy or possibly due to the fact that the night prior-I was out with friends and had a few drinks (maybe it reduced my test anxiety)..or a combination of the two..IT MADE MY DAY..so THANK YOU..your advice helped!

Now being the natural skeptic that I am, I wanted to test this even further...so I took another CAT with GMAC...but only scored 500. I think it's important to note that the 2nd one was taken only 1 week later...so I wasn't as fresh as my 560 CAT..and I honestly didn't give 100%..maybe 75% ish...

On both CAT's my Verbal was stronger.

Any thoughts or feedback?

Also, I need to sharpen my geometry and work problems (D=RT)..any good sites that you can recommend?

Thank you and take care,

BTW..if you see this message posted like 6-7 times..my apologies, but it took that many attempts to have it posted.

Dan

[StaceyKoprince]

Yes, I saw 3 other versions waiting to be approved—don't know why the spam filter didn't like your post! Glad you finally got through.

Next: Yay! Nice work!

So your scoring level isn't just like one number—it's a range depending on a whole variety of factors. How awake and alert you were, how well you made decisions (including time management), and even whether you happened to get a few more problems that were in your areas of strength vs. weakness. There's always some variability on these exams.

The task is to figure out what went better on the 560 exam and worse on the 500 exam so that you know how to get yourself set up to hit the top end of your range. It's just like an athlete trying to peak on game day. So go back and analyze the two exams from that point of view. Did you mess up the timing more? Why? Did you make more careless mistakes? What were they and how could you avoid making them in future? Etc.

When you say you need to sharpen up geo and work problems—at what level? Are they weaker at the lower end and you need foundations-level sharpening? Or certain types—eg, maybe work problems are okay if you're given real numbers but they're a lot harder for you in algebraic form? Etc.

And what materials do you already have access to?

[D177]

Hey Stacey,

I hope all is well with you!!

So after taking a break from GMAT (not by choice..I work full time, and am completing a 2nd degree part time)...the 'need' is creeping back into my veins...I have to complete this GMAT test once and for all. The only thing is that my school asks for a 630 score, what advice do you have for someone who has been away from GMAT study for at least 3 months and needs to get back in gear?

** My best score has been 560 with MP** and I know where my weaknesses are..well..generally

Thank you,

Danny

[StaceyKoprince]

Hi! Take a practice test to see which skills have stayed about the same and which ones have atrophied a bit. (If you don't want to "waste" a fresh test, you could just redo the questions from an old test—something old enough that you won't remember most of the questions.)

Use that data to first get your skills back to where they were when you stopped. And use that time to see where your next-best-opportunities lie in terms of what to improve next. For example, you might realize that you're forgetting some of the parallelism rules or you're mixing up how to deal with ratios, so you relearn those—and as you do, you realize that you next want to push comparisons (which are a subset of parallelism with some more nitpicky rules) or that you've rebuilt ratios now, but the next natural place to go is the adjacent topics of fractions and percents. Or you might realize that you can use smart numbers or working backwards on a lot of ratio problems and you want to get better at using those strategies for other content areas. Or that you need more work on stories (a lot of ratio problems come in the form of stories—and of course stories can be used for lots of other content areas.)

As you look at the data and see how your "get back up to speed" studies go, feel free to come back here and tell us what you're observing and what you think you should do about it—and we'll tell you where we agree and where we have other ideas.

[D177]

Thank you very much!

I appreciate your quick reply and the very detailed tips on how to get back 'in gear'.

You are definitely a gem in the world of GMAT instructors..please don't ever change!! Honestly, once I'm done with this nightmare of an exam;... I will highly recommend you and your team to anyone and everyone for GMAT!

It shows in your replies and fine detail that you actually know you're material, enjoy what you are doing, clearly have been doing it for a while and actually care of about the students who have to endure it.

Thanks again, take good care of yourself, and I will definitely be in touch!

Danny

[StaceyKoprince]

Aw, thank you. I am fascinated by this exam and I also love helping people figure out how to take it.

Good luck!