including/some of which were

[RonPurewal]

sweet.

[ntr1989512]

(d) is incorrect because it misuses a "which" construction.

all constructions built on preposition + "which" - such as of which, from which, some of which, with which, etc. - must be used in the same way as "which" itself.

in this case, the "which" is trying to refer to "several posts", which is way too far away from the comma to be acceptable.

if this is really a gmat problem, then the quality of those problems is declining at an alarming rate (or the problem writers were asleep, drunk, etc. when they wrote this problem ... ugh)

hi ron
i remember you said that in the construction of
"X preposition Y, which". "Which"can refer X as long as "which" stands for the ELIGIBLE noun that's closest to the comma.
by "eligible", i mean that the noun has to AGREE IN TERMS OF SINGULAR/PLURAL with the FOLLOWING VERB.

here's an example:
the box of nails, which is on the counter, is to be used on this project.

and in choice C:
United States Senator Daniel Inouye was appointed to several posts within the Democratic party during his first term, some of which were....
both "within" and "during" are preposition. and "posts" agree with "were"

it seems ok, so am i correct?

thank ron, i have find your explanation on my question above

[tim]

Ron was referring to "which" following a comma. The word "of" here puts the "which" into a separate category - as it is no longer a relative pronoun, the rules for relative pronouns no longer apply..

[AbhilashM94]

Ron,

In (A), does ,that and ,which work the same way?

I though ,that refers to the entire clause.

[tim]

You are asking if X and Y work the same way in A, but X and Y do not both appear in A so your question is invalid. Please consider carefully what you're asking, and rephrase your question in a way that is grammatically and logically sound. The only way we can help you is if it is clear what you're asking.

[eggpain24]

sweet.

HI，Ron

I just have some doubts here about “include” vs. “including”

I remember you say that we have to read “include” very literally

X include Y → Y is an actually component of Y
X，including Y → X and Y are at the same level

therefore，even if which include / that include can refer to the faraway “posts”， it makes little sense

posts include "assistant majority whip" and "vice-chair of the Democratic Senatorial Committee."

please correct me if I am wrong. I am a little bit confused here.

really thanks!

[AbhilashM94]

You are asking if X and Y work the same way in A, but X and Y do not both appear in A so your question is invalid. Please consider carefully what you're asking, and rephrase your question in a way that is grammatically and logically sound. The only way we can help you is if it is clear what you're asking.

Sorry for being unclear.

my question is what is the difference between COMMA THAT and COMMA WHICH.

I've not really seen a COMMA THAT.

I have highlighted the colors below for this problem.

United States Senator Daniel Inouye was appointed to several posts within the Democratic party during his first term, that included assistant majority whip and vice-chair of the Democratic Senatorial Committee.

A. that included

B. which includes

C. including

D. some of which were

E. among them being

[RonPurewal]

If you see a comma before a "that" modifier, you're looking at pieces of two different constructions. I.e., the comma belongs to some other construction.

E.g., look at #34 in the OG verbal supplement (can't reproduce here).

[JaneC643]

Hi, Ron,

I'm still confused after reading all of posts. As you mentioned in other posts previously, the usage "comma+including" is the exception of the usage "comma+-ing" that is supposed to modify the preceding clause. The reason why we eliminate choice D,because" some of which" is too far from the noun "posts". However, the "including" is still too far from the correct modified noun "posts", so why the "including" is correct? If we use"including", I could still mistakenly think it modifies the preceding noun" first term". Therefore, I do not see any merits in choiceC are better than ChoiceE.

Thank you for clarifying!

[RonPurewal]

If we use"including", I could still mistakenly think it modifies the preceding noun" first term"

that's a nonsense interpretation, so this objection is not valid.

i.e., if a phrase has 2 possible interpretations, of which only one makes sense and the other is nonsense, then there is no "ambiguity".

you are ALWAYS expected to reject nonsense interpretations. in fact, the importance of this kind of common sense is pretty much the only reason why SC belongs in the verbal section. (if SC were just a bunch of "rules" that weren't governed by your intuition for sense vs. nonsense, then it would belong in the quant section.)

[ZhengJ600]

Dear GMAT experts - I have a quick question on choice E. Would "among them" be correct? I remember that I saw an OG question, talking about specific example of challenges, that has "among them" as the correct answer.

Please let me know your thoughts. Thanks.

[Sage Pearce-Higgins]

I would cautiously say 'yes'. However I haven't seen that kind of construction on a GMAT problem (i.e. a clause beginning with ..., among them...). What problem are you referring to?

[ZhengJ600]

Thanks Sage. I'm not sure how much I can quote the original problem, but I'm talking about the "At the annual stockholders meeting, investors heard a presentation..." problem. The correct answer choice includes "among them".

[Sage Pearce-Higgins]

Thanks for sharing that (you can always post a problem number if that's easier). Well done for making that connection, and it's a nice example of a 'subgroup modifier', and suggests that answer E of the Daniel Inouye problem would be okay without the word 'being'.

Check out chapter 1 of All the Verbal Companion for more on Subgroup modifiers.

[ScottD643]

Great opportunity to enhance my understanding of a certain type of modifier.

The Official Answer referenced here:

(D) …… investors heard a presentation on the challenges facing the company, AMONG THEM the threat of……suit and the decline in sales…”

Modified (E) —- suggestion that this version might be correct:

(E) US Senator Daniel Inouye was appointed to several posts within the Democratic Party during his first term, AMONG THEM assistant majority whip…….and vice-chair…..”

My question, even though any answer would be complete speculation since we never know for sure (in a vacuum) whether a version will be considered correct relative to others:

Does the insertion of the adverbial modifier “during his first term” cause issues for the modification of “several posts” by the ‘Subgroup Modifier’ (“among them X and Y”)?

In OA (D), we have one noun phrase with a restrictive noun modifier prior to the (comma) + “among them…..”

“……challenges facing the company, among them…”

However, in the version speculated about (E in the current problem with the removal of “being”), isn’t it the case that we still have the issue of the intervening adverbial modifier?

WHEN was he appointed? “during the first term”

Stated in a different way, does the fact that this adverbial prep. phrase modifier intervenes even matter?

Or, more directly (and admittedly more obnoxiously), do you agree with this conjecture?

This is called “my falling down a rabbit hole after midnight”…..

Thanks for sharing that (you can always post a problem number if that's easier). Well done for making that connection, and it's a nice example of a 'subgroup modifier', and suggests that answer E of the Daniel Inouye problem would be okay without the word 'being'.

Check out chapter 1 of All the Verbal Companion for more on Subgroup modifiers.