Hydrocarbons, with which fruit flies perfume themselves

[jnelson0612]

Good point Varun.

[gmatalongthewatchtower]

"in distinguishing their own species from those of others"

Can I say "others" is parallel with "their" and "those" is parallel with "Species"?

2 Questions -

1) I am still not clear what's wrong with the parallelism mentioned by xyin.

2) Secondly, in Ron's example, "your views are different from those of others". Shouldn't "those" refer back to "your views" instead of "views" --- essentially, "those" should also include all modifiers of the nouns associated with it. Correct?

Thanks

[RonPurewal]

1) I am still not clear what's wrong with the parallelism mentioned by xyin.

well -- it's impossible to tell whether gmac considers that incorrect. since the choices containing it have other errors.

regardless, it's still better to have the more compact construction -- the comparison is species vs. species, so "those of" is unnecessary.

2) Secondly, in Ron's example, "your views are different from those of others". Shouldn't "those" refer back to "your views" instead of "views" --- essentially, "those" should also include all modifiers of the nouns associated with it. Correct?

no. that's how normal pronouns (he, she, it, they) work, but definitely not how relative pronouns (that, those) work.
in fact, if this were a rule, then it would actually be impossible to use "that" or "those" in any comparison.

[gmatalongthewatchtower]

1) I am still not clear what's wrong with the parallelism mentioned by xyin.

well -- it's impossible to tell whether gmac considers that incorrect. since the choices containing it have other errors.

regardless, it's still better to have the more compact construction -- the comparison is species vs. species, so "those of" is unnecessary.

2) Secondly, in Ron's example, "your views are different from those of others". Shouldn't "those" refer back to "your views" instead of "views" --- essentially, "those" should also include all modifiers of the nouns associated with it. Correct?

no. that's how normal pronouns (he, she, it, they) work, but definitely not how relative pronouns (that, those) work.
in fact, if this were a rule, then it would actually be impossible to use "that" or "those" in any comparison.

Thanks Ron. I have another question though. When we use demonstrative pronouns like those/this/these/that, do they also carry the prepositional phrases attached to the noun?

e.g. #1
The cat in the cage in the US has lost its fighting instincts as compared with that in Africa.

Here, is it understood that the comparison is between animal in the cage in US vs. animal in the cage in Africa OR the comparison is between the animal in the cage in US vs. animal in Africa? I am a bit confused.

e.g. #2 - Rates of employment in the US are greater than those in China.

Does "thsoe" refer to "Rates" or "Rates of employemnt". Logically, it must refer to "Rates of employment."
I am trying to figure out the rules governing modifier and those/it.

e.g. #3 The rate of employment in the US is greater than it was in 1980.

Here, I believe that "it" refers to "rate of employment in the US"

e.g. #4 The rate of employment in the US is greater than it is in China.
Here, I believe that "it" refers to "rate of employment". Correct?


Can you please elaborate a bit on this point -- in terms of it/he/she?

E.g.
Smoking and drinking in the cafeteria is now a serious offense than it was in 1990.

I am assuming that "it" here carries "in the cafeteria" alongwith it?
< I am not able to think of any comparisons question in which he/she/it would carry the prepositional phrase. May be you could help me with a couple of examples?>

[BTW, there is a similar example in OG for this]

Another example - The cat in the cage has lost its fighting instincts as compared with its predecessors.

<Does it mean that "its" predecessors in the cage?> Logically, it doesn't make sense. The sentence seems to be talking about general animals - not necesarily those in the cage.

Your help is greatly appreciated.

Thanks

[gmatalongthewatchtower]

1) I am still not clear what's wrong with the parallelism mentioned by xyin.

well -- it's impossible to tell whether gmac considers that incorrect. since the choices containing it have other errors.

regardless, it's still better to have the more compact construction -- the comparison is species vs. species, so "those of" is unnecessary.

2) Secondly, in Ron's example, "your views are different from those of others". Shouldn't "those" refer back to "your views" instead of "views" --- essentially, "those" should also include all modifiers of the nouns associated with it. Correct?

no. that's how normal pronouns (he, she, it, they) work, but definitely not how relative pronouns (that, those) work.
in fact, if this were a rule, then it would actually be impossible to use "that" or "those" in any comparison.

Thanks Ron. I have another question though. When we use demonstrative pronouns like those/this/these/that, do they also carry the prepositional phrases attached to the noun?

e.g. #1

The cat in the cage in the US has lost its fighting instincts as compared with that in Africa.

Here, is it understood that the comparison is between animal in the cage in US vs. animal in the cage in Africa OR the comparison is between the animal in the cage in US vs. animal in Africa? I am a bit confused.

e.g. #2 - Rates of employment in the US are greater than those in China.

Does "thsoe" refer to "Rates" or "Rates of employemnt". Logically, it must refer to "Rates of employment."
I am trying to figure out the rules governing modifier and those/it.

e.g. #3 The rate of employment in the US is greater than it was in 1980.

Here, I believe that "it" refers to "rate of employment in the US"

e.g. #4 The rate of employment in the US is greater than it is in China.
Here, I believe that "it" refers to "rate of employment". Correct?

Can you please elaborate a bit on this point -- in terms of it/he/she?

E.g.
Smoking and drinking in the cafeteria is now a serious offense than it was in 1990.

I am assuming that "it" here carries "in the cafeteria" alongwith it?
< I am not able to think of any comparisons question in which he/she/it would carry the prepositional phrase. May be you could help me with a couple of examples?>

[BTW, there is a similar example in OG for this]

Another example - The cat in the cage has lost its fighting instincts as compared with its predecessors.

<Does it mean that "its" predecessors in the cage?> Logically, it doesn't make sense. The sentence seems to be talking about general animals - not necesarily those in the cage.

Your help is greatly appreciated.

Thanks

Ron,
Can you please help me with my question above? I see that there are a few threads that were posted after my post have been answered. I believe that this thread got pushed in the queue while you were on vacation :).



Thanks
GMATAlongTheWatchtower

[RonPurewal]

watchtower, *do not* write "reminder posts" -- if you do that, you are actually moving your post to the last spot in line again.

we answer posts strictly in order from oldest to newest; we don't skip posts.
...but if you write a "please respond to my post" post, then guess which thread is now the newest (and hence last) one.

Thanks Ron. I have another question though. When we use demonstrative pronouns like those/this/these/that, do they also carry the prepositional phrases attached to the noun?

in general, no; these pronouns usually just stand for nouns.

e.g. #1
The cat in the cage in the US has lost its fighting instincts as compared with that in Africa.

in this sort of example, you would most likely see an altogether different construction -- such as "compared with its counterpart in africa" -- instead.

... or, just as likely, you'd change "cat in the cage" to "caged cat", in which case you could use that without any issues.

Here, is it understood that the comparison is between animal in the cage in US vs. animal in the cage in Africa OR the comparison is between the animal in the cage in US vs. animal in Africa? I am a bit confused.

i don't think you'll ever face something like this on the test (or in any good writing anywhere, for that matter). have you actually seen something like this in official materials?

e.g. #2 - Rates of employment in the US are greater than those in China.

Does "thsoe" refer to "Rates" or "Rates of employemnt". Logically, it must refer to "Rates of employment."
I am trying to figure out the rules governing modifier and those/it.

it would refer to "rates of employment".
to figure this out, just compare the parallel structures:
THOSE in china
______ in the u.s.
--> the blank must be "rates of unemployment". this is the only "rule" of which i'm aware in this sort of case; beware overcomplicating the issue.

e.g. #3 The rate of employment in the US is greater than it was in 1980.

Here, I believe that "it" refers to "rate of employment in the US"

yes.

e.g. #4 The rate of employment in the US is greater than it is in China.
Here, I believe that "it" refers to "rate of employment". Correct?

this is an incorrectly written sentence. "it" must represent a noun plus all attached modifiers, so in this case "it" = The rate of employment in the US. you can see why this would be a problem when you get to the china part.

you can rewrite this sentence, correctly, in one of two ways:
* The rate of employment in the US is greater than that in China (like your #2)
* The rate of employment is greater in the US than it is in China (in which case "it" is just "the rate of employment")

Can you please elaborate a bit on this point -- in terms of it/he/she?

if you see it/he/she, the pronoun stands for the appropriate noun + all attached modifiers.
not sure what else you mean by "elaborate".

Smoking and drinking in the cafeteria is now a serious offense than it was in 1990.

I am assuming that "it" here carries "in the cafeteria" alongwith it?

yes.

< I am not able to think of any comparisons question in which he/she/it would carry the prepositional phrase. May be you could help me with a couple of examples?>

there are now quite a few examples in this post; i hope the point is clear by now.

in o.g. verbal supplement #34, you can eliminate choices b/c/e (the ones containing "it") for the same reason. (you are not allowed to post o.g. problems on the forum.)

[BTW, there is a similar example in OG for this]

Another example - The cat in the cage has lost its fighting instincts as compared with its predecessors.

<Does it mean that "its" predecessors in the cage?> Logically, it doesn't make sense. The sentence seems to be talking about general animals - not necesarily those in the cage.

hmm? i'm not following you here. it would refer to the predecessors of the cat in the cage; there is no implication that the predecessors were (or weren't) in cages themselves.

same thing -- "see the girl in the pink skirt? i know her parents"
--> this means "the parents of the girl in the pink skirt"; it clearly does not imply that the parents themselves wear pink skirts.

[namnam123]

"this" in A and B is incorrect. "this" never is a noun/pronoun in formal writen English.

Is my thinking correct?

[RonPurewal]

"this" in A and B is incorrect. "this" never is a noun/pronoun in formal writen English.

Is my thinking correct?

correct; "this" should never be used as a pronoun.

[jp.jprasanna]

watchtower, *do not* write "reminder posts" -- if you do that, you are actually moving your post to the last spot in line again.

we answer posts strictly in order from oldest to newest; we don't skip posts.
...but if you write a "please respond to my post" post, then guess which thread is now the newest (and hence last) one.

Thanks Ron. I have another question though. When we use demonstrative pronouns like those/this/these/that, do they also carry the prepositional phrases attached to the noun?

in general, no; these pronouns usually just stand for nouns.

e.g. #1
The cat in the cage in the US has lost its fighting instincts as compared with that in Africa.

in this sort of example, you would most likely see an altogether different construction -- such as "compared with its counterpart in africa" -- instead.

... or, just as likely, you'd change "cat in the cage" to "caged cat", in which case you could use that without any issues.

Here, is it understood that the comparison is between animal in the cage in US vs. animal in the cage in Africa OR the comparison is between the animal in the cage in US vs. animal in Africa? I am a bit confused.

i don't think you'll ever face something like this on the test (or in any good writing anywhere, for that matter). have you actually seen something like this in official materials?

e.g. #2 - Rates of employment in the US are greater than those in China.

Does "thsoe" refer to "Rates" or "Rates of employemnt". Logically, it must refer to "Rates of employment."
I am trying to figure out the rules governing modifier and those/it.

it would refer to "rates of employment".
to figure this out, just compare the parallel structures:
THOSE in china
______ in the u.s.
--> the blank must be "rates of unemployment". this is the only "rule" of which i'm aware in this sort of case; beware overcomplicating the issue.

e.g. #3 The rate of employment in the US is greater than it was in 1980.

Here, I believe that "it" refers to "rate of employment in the US"

yes.

e.g. #4 The rate of employment in the US is greater than it is in China.
Here, I believe that "it" refers to "rate of employment". Correct?

this is an incorrectly written sentence. "it" must represent a noun plus all attached modifiers, so in this case "it" = The rate of employment in the US. you can see why this would be a problem when you get to the china part.

you can rewrite this sentence, correctly, in one of two ways:
* The rate of employment in the US is greater than that in China (like your #2)
* The rate of employment is greater in the US than it is in China (in which case "it" is just "the rate of employment")

Can you please elaborate a bit on this point -- in terms of it/he/she?

if you see it/he/she, the pronoun stands for the appropriate noun + all attached modifiers.
not sure what else you mean by "elaborate".

Smoking and drinking in the cafeteria is now a serious offense than it was in 1990.

I am assuming that "it" here carries "in the cafeteria" alongwith it?

yes.

< I am not able to think of any comparisons question in which he/she/it would carry the prepositional phrase. May be you could help me with a couple of examples?>

there are now quite a few examples in this post; i hope the point is clear by now.

in o.g. verbal supplement #34, you can eliminate choices b/c/e (the ones containing "it") for the same reason. (you are not allowed to post o.g. problems on the forum.)

[BTW, there is a similar example in OG for this]

Another example - The cat in the cage has lost its fighting instincts as compared with its predecessors.

<Does it mean that "its" predecessors in the cage?> Logically, it doesn't make sense. The sentence seems to be talking about general animals - not necesarily those in the cage.

hmm? i'm not following you here. it would refer to the predecessors of the cat in the cage; there is no implication that the predecessors were (or weren't) in cages themselves.

same thing -- "see the girl in the pink skirt? i know her parents"
--> this means "the parents of the girl in the pink skirt"; it clearly does not imply that the parents themselves wear pink skirts.

Ron - Many thanks for your explanations, they are simply great.

Just 1 question - In all the above examples there were clear parallel signs, but , using the same logic, I had trouble with the below question (Below example taken from another GMAT prep Q, but I tweaked it a bit to suit the needs please bear with me!)

Today’s technology allows manufacturers to make small cars of Audi more fuel-efficient now than at any time in their production history

C .small cars of Audi that are more fuel-efficient than those at any other time in

1. here does "those" refer to small cars of Audi or small cars of Audi that are more fuel-efficient? - If only "small cars of Audi" then why are we allowed drop that modifier "that are more fuel-efficient" but include prep phrases, which in some sense act like modifiers don't they..

2. What's the parallelism marker here in the example give above?
---from an another examples- Rates of employment in the US are greater than those in China.
here we can see the parallelism black and blue !

Cheers

[RonPurewal]

jp,
it is quite likely that the following thread, which has about 25 posts right now, contains the answer to your question:
today-s-techonology-allows-manufacturers-to-make-small-cars-t354.html

please do not post questions in the wrong thread. instead, search the forum. thanks.

[amit1234]

Hi,

I donot understand the structure of the correct sentence.

Hydrocarbons, with which fruit flies perfume themselves in species-
specific blends, are known to be important in courtship, apparently assisting flies that taste the hydrocarbons on prospective mates in distinguishing their own species from others.


here Is ", apparently assisting...." this a ING modifier?
If so what does it apply to? hydrocarbon or fruit flies?

the clause before this modifier is
: fruit flies (with hydrocarbon) perfume themselves in species-specific blends, are known to be important in courtship.

So ING action is applied to the subject of the clause i.e. fruit flies.

please help.

[RonPurewal]

the clause before this modifier is
: fruit flies (with hydrocarbon) perfume themselves in species-specific blends, are known to be important in courtship.

So ING action is applied to the subject of the clause i.e. fruit flies.

please help.

no.
the preceding clause is "Hydrocarbons ... are known to be important in courtship". (you seem to have mistaken the intervening modifier for the clause itself.)
the following __ing modifier describes this subject and action perfectly.

[divineacclivity]

choice d: you're right that 'those of others' is problematic; it should just be 'others' (it's clear that the intention is to refer to other species, not to something of other species).

another huge problem with choice d is its total distortion of the sentence's original meaning.
- the original meaning is that hydrocarbons assist those flies that happen to taste them in species identification.
- choice d asserts that hydrocarbons somehow help flies to taste hydrocarbons (other ones?) with the intention** of species identification, which is a whole different ballgame.

**the infinitive can signal intention, or purpose, in this sort of context. for instance,
i ran over the glass in the road, flattening my tire --> the flattening of the tire was a result, but no information is given as to whether i intended it (i probably didn't)
i ran over the glass in the road to flatten my tire --> for some reason, i actually wanted to flatten the tire, so i chose this particular method of doing so.

Ron (/Experts),

When you say original sentence, do you actually mean choice A?
Does choice A always give the right context (complete information) about a sentence? Thanks.

[divineacclivity]

1) I am still not clear what's wrong with the parallelism mentioned by xyin.

well -- it's impossible to tell whether gmac considers that incorrect. since the choices containing it have other errors.

regardless, it's still better to have the more compact construction -- the comparison is species vs. species, so "those of" is unnecessary.

2) Secondly, in Ron's example, "your views are different from those of others". Shouldn't "those" refer back to "your views" instead of "views" --- essentially, "those" should also include all modifiers of the nouns associated with it. Correct?

no. that's how normal pronouns (he, she, it, they) work, but definitely not how relative pronouns (that, those) work.
in fact, if this were a rule, then it would actually be impossible to use "that" or "those" in any comparison.

Ron, great explanation as always.
Just one question here.
Why is "those of" in choice D unnecessary.
"to distinguish their own species from those (species) of others (flies)" - sounds like "those of" is necessary and without "those of" we'd be comparing "species" with "others (flies)"
Another correct way that I could think of is: to distinguish their own species with others' (apostrophe)

I'm eager to understand the flaw in my thought (jotted down above) because I preferred D over E based on this thought only :( though I now know that the change in the meaning "that taste/to taste" could have been another criteria of evaluating choices but that didn't strike me specially because not all the times has this "original sentence (i.e. choice A)" worked for me.

Please help here

[jlucero]

Ron (/Experts),

When you say original sentence, do you actually mean choice A?
Does choice A always give the right context (complete information) about a sentence? Thanks.

Yes