GMATPREP- Rice

[tarek99]

New hardy varieties of rice show promise of producing high yields without the costly requirements of irrigation and application of commercial fertilizer by earlier high-yielding varieties.

a) requirements of irrigation and application of commercial fertilizer by earlier high-yielding varieties

b) requirements by earlier high-yielding varieties of application of commercial fertilizer and irrigation

c) requirements of application of commercial fertilizer and irrigation of earlier high-yielding varieties

d) application of commercial fertilizer and irrigation that was required by earlier high-yielding varieties

e) irrigation and application of commercial fertilizer that were required by earler high-yielding varieties




I chose D, but the OA is E. I thought that "that" in D refers to "irrigation", leading to the singular verb "was." However, how come the singular verb "were" in E is used when the noun just before "that" is singular "commercial fertilizer"?

[Brian Lange]

Tarek99:

Good question. The key is that the underlined phrase needs to reference both activities -- irrigation AND application. Hence, a compound subject requires use of a plural noun -- which draws us to 'were" instead of 'was.' "D" is incorrect, b/c it uses a singular verb "was" even though we're referring to multiple items.

E is the answer choice that best fixes this issue.

Hope that helps.

Brian

[StaceyKoprince]

Hi, guys - you may be wondering who Brian is - he's a ManhattanGMAT instructor who has just added forum duty to his list of activities for us! For some reason, his posts are showing up under the "guest" label, but we'll get that worked out ASAP so that he's labeled an instructor! :)

[Guest]

thanks brian! but i have another question for you. so does the reference of "that" depends on the verb following "that" rather than the other way around? cause i've always thought that what comes right before "that" is the must reference for the verb following "that." Based on your input, it appears to me that the reference of "that" rather depends on the tense of verb following the word "that." For example:

The cat and mouse that enjoy running around.
In this sentence, because the verb following "that" is plural, "that" is referring to both cat and mouse.


That cat and mouse that enjoys running around.
In this sentence, because the verb following "that" is singular, "that" is referring to only mouse.


Is this correct?
thanks

[tarek99]

sorry brian, in my second example, the first word should be "the" rather than "that."

[RonPurewal]

thanks brian! but i have another question for you. so does the reference of "that" depends on the verb following "that" rather than the other way around? cause i've always thought that what comes right before "that" is the must reference for the verb following "that." Based on your input, it appears to me that the reference of "that" rather depends on the tense of verb following the word "that." For example:

The cat and mouse that enjoy running around.
In this sentence, because the verb following "that" is plural, "that" is referring to both cat and mouse.


That cat and mouse that enjoys running around.
In this sentence, because the verb following "that" is singular, "that" is referring to only mouse.


Is this correct?
thanks

comment #1: you used the word 'sentence' for both of the above constructions. just to clarify, i hope you realize that neither of those is actually a sentence: they're both just noun phrases (each of which could be the subject, or perhaps the object of a sentence, but not a sentence in its own right).

--

comment #2: it's not the tense of the verb, it's the number (singular vs plural). (the word 'tense' refers to present/past/etc.) if you meant that, then yes, you're right. however: sentences should be written in a manner that minimizes possible confusion/obfuscation. because your second example is rather difficult to comprehend at first, you'd want to rewrite it in a way that facilitates understanding; the simplest way to do that would probably be just to switch the two items around, yielding a mouse that enjoys running around and a cat.

another example:
my best friends are a redhead and a bald guy who drink too much --> good
my best friends are a redhead who drinks too much and a bald guy --> good
my best friends are a bald guy and a redhead who drinks too much --> marginally acceptable, but nowhere near as good as the preceding example

[d_taneja]

I would rather say that your 2nd construction is incorrect because verb after "that" must follow subject and subject in the sencond construction is "cat and mouse" (plural) so berb must be "enjoy" rather than "enjoys"

thanks brian! but i have another question for you. so does the reference of "that" depends on the verb following "that" rather than the other way around? cause i've always thought that what comes right before "that" is the must reference for the verb following "that." Based on your input, it appears to me that the reference of "that" rather depends on the tense of verb following the word "that." For example:

The cat and mouse that enjoy running around.
In this sentence, because the verb following "that" is plural, "that" is referring to both cat and mouse.


That cat and mouse that enjoys running around.
In this sentence, because the verb following "that" is singular, "that" is referring to only mouse.


Is this correct?
thanks

[RonPurewal]

I would rather say that your 2nd construction is incorrect because verb after "that" must follow subject and subject in the sencond construction is "cat and mouse" (plural) so berb must be "enjoy" rather than "enjoys"

this isn't quite accurate, as i explained above.

the second version does have an acceptable interpretation - but it's too obfuscatory / confusing to be totally acceptable.

please see my post (two posts above this one).

[atrehan]

thanks brian! but i have another question for you. so does the reference of "that" depends on the verb following "that" rather than the other way around? cause i've always thought that what comes right before "that" is the must reference for the verb following "that." Based on your input, it appears to me that the reference of "that" rather depends on the tense of verb following the word "that." For example:

The cat and mouse that enjoy running around.
In this sentence, because the verb following "that" is plural, "that" is referring to both cat and mouse.


That cat and mouse that enjoys running around.
In this sentence, because the verb following "that" is singular, "that" is referring to only mouse.


Is this correct?
thanks

comment #1: you used the word 'sentence' for both of the above constructions. just to clarify, i hope you realize that neither of those is actually a sentence: they're both just noun phrases (each of which could be the subject, or perhaps the object of a sentence, but not a sentence in its own right).

--

comment #2: it's not the tense of the verb, it's the number (singular vs plural). (the word 'tense' refers to present/past/etc.) if you meant that, then yes, you're right. however: sentences should be written in a manner that minimizes possible confusion/obfuscation. because your second example is rather difficult to comprehend at first, you'd want to rewrite it in a way that facilitates understanding; the simplest way to do that would probably be just to switch the two items around, yielding a mouse that enjoys running around and a cat.

another example:
my best friends are a redhead and a bald guy who drink too much --> good
my best friends are a redhead who drinks too much and a bald guy --> good
my best friends are a bald guy and a redhead who drinks too much --> marginally acceptable, but nowhere near as good as the preceding example

Why is

(3) "my best friends are a bald guy and a redhead who drinks too much"
any lesser than
the other two - (1),(2).

All 3 look equivalent assuming we dont care about the "guy who drinks toom much".

[I'm really sorry if I am completely missing the point here]


Thanks.

[messi10]

Hi,

My understanding as per Ron's post is that of clarity. The first two examples are quite clear:

(1) my best friends are a redhead and a bald guy who drink too much

Notice that the compound subject goes with the plural verb. We don't have to think about his sentence at all because both of them drink too much. There is no ambiguity about the modifier

(2) my best friends are a redhead who drinks too much and a bald guy

This one is also clear in that the modifier follows the first friend and makes it clear that its the redhead who drinks too much.

(3) my best friends are a bald guy and a redhead who drinks too much

In this one, you have to match the verb with the subject to confirm that its only the redhead who drinks too much. It requires that little extra understanding.

Regards

Sunil

[RonPurewal]

Hi,

My understanding as per Ron's post is that of clarity. The first two examples are quite clear:

(1) my best friends are a redhead and a bald guy who drink too much

Notice that the compound subject goes with the plural verb. We don't have to think about his sentence at all because both of them drink too much. There is no ambiguity about the modifier

(2) my best friends are a redhead who drinks too much and a bald guy

This one is also clear in that the modifier follows the first friend and makes it clear that its the redhead who drinks too much.

(3) my best friends are a bald guy and a redhead who drinks too much

In this one, you have to match the verb with the subject to confirm that its only the redhead who drinks too much. It requires that little extra understanding.

Regards

Sunil

this is a good summary -- #3 is just harder to read.

i guess i shouldn't have gone into that whole business about whether it's a little bit inferior; the point is that it's acceptable, and that's the point.

[thanghnvn]

Ron, manhantant experts, pls, help

normally, NOUN BY NOUN is wrong. Normally, we say NOUN OF NOUN, or NOUN'S NOUN.

Is my thinking correct?

I want to know more, detail reasons why " requirement by " is wrong. Pls, give me more example.



t

[jnelson0612]

Ron, manhantant experts, pls, help

normally, NOUN BY NOUN is wrong. Normally, we say NOUN OF NOUN, or NOUN'S NOUN.

Is my thinking correct?

I want to know more, detail reasons why " requirement by " is wrong. Pls, give me more example.
t

Right! For example, we say "piece of cake" rather than "piece by cake". Or "cat's tail" rather than "tail by cat"; I could also say "the tail of the cat".

"requirement by" is just not the correct idiom to use. For example, we wouldn't say:

"A requirement by the business school is the GMAT." The GMAC would say that this idiom is incorrect.

Better would be to say:
"The business school requires that applicants take the GMAT."
OR
"A requirement of admission to business school is the completion of the GMAT."

Idioms are annoying, but knowledge of them can come in handy on the GMAT.

[pranabiitkgp]

Hi,
I have some confusion regarding the usage of ''that'' to refer back plural subject . Reading the previous posts of Ron I understand that, it is possible to use 'that' and ''who'' to modify plural subject , but if there were an option, would this also be right to use 'those' instead of 'that' in the above example .
Possible ans choice :
...irrigation and application of commercial fertilizer those were required by earlier high-yielding varieties

Thanks,
PM

[RonPurewal]

Hi,
I have some confusion regarding the usage of ''that'' to refer back plural subject . Reading the previous posts of Ron I understand that, it is possible to use 'that' and ''who'' to modify plural subject , but if there were an option, would this also be right to use 'those' instead of 'that' in the above example .
Possible ans choice :
...irrigation and application of commercial fertilizer those were required by earlier high-yielding varieties

Thanks,
PM

no, that's a completely different kind of construction. that's a pronoun used in the other half of a parallel comparison.
e.g.
the designs in exhibit A are more elaborate than those in exhibit B.

you can't start a modifier with "those". if you are creating a modifier, "that" is either singular or plural.
X is the design that i saw yesterday.
X and Y are the designs that i saw yesterday.