Does this it have any antecedent?

[jay871750293]

Hi, instructor~

In Concision Pattern7, Manhattan SC 5th P215, there is a sentence construction: namely, "IT IS... THAT..."

exmaple in the book: IT IS without fear THAT children should play.

However, my question, which is relavent not to the topic of concision but to that of pronoun, is that does the first "it" in the sentence structure have any antecedent?

thanks~

[rohitowe99]

Hi, instructor~

In Concision Pattern7, Manhattan SC 5th P215, there is a sentence construction: namely, "IT IS... THAT..."

exmaple in the book: IT IS without fear THAT children should play.

However, my question, which is relavent not to the topic of concision but to that of pronoun, is that does the first "it" in the sentence structure have any antecedent?

thanks~

Hi

The usage of 'it' is to make the sentence less awkward. This usage is explained under the topic "placeholder it" in the next chapter.
Here it has no noun antecedent.

Hope it helped.

[jay871750293]

Hi, instructor~

In Concision Pattern7, Manhattan SC 5th P215, there is a sentence construction: namely, "IT IS... THAT..."

exmaple in the book: IT IS without fear THAT children should play.

However, my question, which is relavent not to the topic of concision but to that of pronoun, is that does the first "it" in the sentence structure have any antecedent?

thanks~

Hi

The usage of 'it' is to make the sentence less awkward. This usage is explained under the topic "placeholder it" in the next chapter.
Here it has no noun antecedent.

Hope it helped.

Hi, rohitowe~ Thanks for your reply, which reminds me of the usage of "placeholder it".

However, after comparing the two usages of it, I deem that "IT IS THAT" structure, the one I mentioned above, is not the same as "placeholder it".

#1 The "placeholder it" in fact refers to the "THAT clause", making the reversion of the "THAT clause" grammatically correct but awkward.
EXAMPLE in manhatten SC 5th:
1) THAT we scored at all gave us encouragement (Awkward but grammatically correct )
2) IT gave us encouragement THAT we scored at all.

#2 Nevertheless, in "IT IS THAT" structure, there are two differences:
1) the "verb" can only be "TO BE", unlike the "placeholder it", which can use "verb" other than "TO BE", such as "GIVE" in the above exmaple;
2) the reversion of the "THAT clause" is not grammatically correct according to my judgement.
see the following examples:
#1 IT IS without fear THAT children should play.(original sentence in the book, which is correct but not concise)
#2 THAT children should play IS without fear.(I don't think this sentence is correct after fliping the postion of "THAT clause")

welcome further discussion~

[rohitowe99]

Hi, instructor~

In Concision Pattern7, Manhattan SC 5th P215, there is a sentence construction: namely, "IT IS... THAT..."

exmaple in the book: IT IS without fear THAT children should play.

However, my question, which is relavent not to the topic of concision but to that of pronoun, is that does the first "it" in the sentence structure have any antecedent?

thanks~

Hi

The usage of 'it' is to make the sentence less awkward. This usage is explained under the topic "placeholder it" in the next chapter.
Here it has no noun antecedent.

Hope it helped.

Hi, rohitowe~ Thanks for your reply, which reminds me of the usage of "placeholder it".

However, after comparing the two usages of it, I deem that "IT IS THAT" structure, the one I mentioned above, is not the same as "placeholder it".

#1 The "placeholder it" in fact refers to the "THAT clause", making the reversion of the "THAT clause" grammatically correct but awkward.
EXAMPLE in manhatten SC 5th:
1) THAT we scored at all gave us encouragement (Awkward but grammatically correct )
2) IT gave us encouragement THAT we scored at all.

#2 Nevertheless, in "IT IS THAT" structure, there are two differences:
1) the "verb" can only be "TO BE", unlike the "placeholder it", which can use "verb" other than "TO BE", such as "GIVE" in the above exmaple;
2) the reversion of the "THAT clause" is not grammatically correct according to my judgement.
see the following examples:
#1 IT IS without fear THAT children should play.(original sentence in the book, which is correct but not concise)
#2 THAT children should play IS without fear.(I don't think this sentence is correct after fliping the postion of "THAT clause")

welcome further discussion~

Hi,

I agree that in the book we have three categories of "placeholder it", and the above sentence do not qualify for any one of them.
But I think that any 'it' whose antecedent noun is not present in the sentence can qualify as the Placeholder it.
But obviously I might be wrong. I would to hear what EXPERTS have to say here!

[jay871750293]

Can anyone come and help here?

thanks a lot~~~

[jlucero]

Since this is a bossy sentence with the bossy verb "should", you need to include the understood "how" into the clause. How should children play? Children should play without fear.

(How children should play) is without fear.

[jay871750293]

Since this is a bossy sentence with the bossy verb "should", you need to include the understood "how" into the clause. How should children play? Children should play without fear.

(How children should play) is without fear.

Thanks a lot, Joe.
After reading your words repeatedly, I feel much clear but somewhat puzzled again.

Firstly, from your reply, can I infer that the "IT" in the "IT IS... THAT..." structure is indeed the placeholder, which refers to the "THAT..." clause? Right?

Secondly, in your reply, you mentioned that "should" is a bossy verb. I reviewed the Manhattan SC 5th P113 and found the usage of bossy verb(BV): namely, BV + That + subject + command subjunctive. And I don't think that "should" can apply to this usage and fall into confusion again.
Could you please help me to figure out this confusion?

Thanks~

[jlucero]

Bossy is definitely not the right word here- should is an auxiliary word like can, may, must, etc. Plug any of those words in the blank:

He ________ play without fear.

And you are giving a condition on how he plays. I was thinking bossy as in suggestive, but you are correct that bossy verbs are something different completely.

However, "it" is still a placeholder for the last clause and does require the "how" to express a proper meaning.