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FanPurewal
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Re: can somebody help me out with this question?

by FanPurewal Tue Sep 30, 2014 2:34 am

FanPurewal Wrote:
RonPurewal Wrote:
saxenankit Wrote:Very nice explaination Ron. I really appreciate your efforts.

Coming back to this question, can I say -

Only seven people this century have been killed by the GWS, the man-eater of the movies, fewer have been killed by bee strings


no.
2 problems:

#1, that's a run-on sentence. if you split it into 2 sentences -- by means of a semicolon or period -- then it's grammatically legitimate.
Only seven people this century have been killed by the GWS, the man-eater of the movies; fewer have been killed by bee stings.

#2, this sentence means exactly the opposite of the meaning of the original sentence.
if you take out the "than" and write "fewer have been killed by bee stings", you are now saying that the # killed by bee stings (note "stings", not "strings") is lower. that's the opposite of the way the comparison goes in the original sentence.


hi ron , lucero and other experts

i am wandering what are the subject and verb in this sentence below?
fewer have been killed by bee strings

please clarify, thanks !



but i can't find any differences on structure between these sentences below.

1. Only seven people this century have been killled by GWS, fewer have been killed by bee strings
2.Only seven people this century have been killled by GWS, fewer than those have been killed by bee stings.

you said the first is run-on sentence, and the 2nd is not.

can you please tell me what are the subject and verb in the 1st sentence?

thanks!
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Re: can somebody help me out with this question?

by soulwangh Fri Oct 03, 2014 2:21 am

FanPurewal Wrote:
but i can't find any differences on structure between these sentences below.

1. Only seven people this century have been killled by GWS, fewer have been killed by bee strings
2.Only seven people this century have been killled by GWS, fewer than those have been killed by bee stings.

you said the first is run-on sentence, and the 2nd is not.

can you please tell me what are the subject and verb in the 1st sentence?

thanks!


Hi,
I want to ask a question. I notice that the instructors here usually reply to the preceding question, leaving some question unanswered. In order to avoid your waiting too long for an answer, I try my best to reply.

1// The fist one is a run-on sentence because it is a whole clause. The Subject is "fewer" and the Verb is "have been killed".
2// Ron did not say the second sentence is not a run-on. In fact he did say that the sentence is wrong. Refer to page 6 of the post.
Ron said :
In "fewer than ____", the blank can't be filled with a complete sentence.
In this sentence, those have been killed by bee stings is a whole clause, though the sentence has some grammatical problems.

Hope it can help.
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Re: can somebody help me out with this question?

by soulwangh Fri Oct 03, 2014 3:03 am

RonPurewal Wrote:
Only seven people this century have been killled by GWS, fewer than those have been killed by bee stings. -> Is it considered parallel?


Still wrong. You can't say "Things are fewer than other things", ever, about any things (or people or animals or whatever).
I don't have a solid explanation for you -- think of it as an idiom, if you want to -- but you can't.

In New York City, men are fewer than women. No.
In New York City, there are fewer men than women. Yes.
New York City has fewer men than women. Yes.

By the way, this will likely have zero importance on the GMAT, because, as stated above, all you need to do is look at the parallelism of the things in the comparison. But, if nothing else, it will help you become a better writer of English.

Most importantly, do not create your own versions of GMAC's sentences.
Don't do it.
Ever.
It's a complete waste of your time.

In 99% of cases when students "tweak" GMAC's sentences, their versions are wrong, for reasons that GMAC does not test. (The range of things tested on SC is a very, very small fraction of all issues in English.)
So, we end up with a situation that's like "No, that's wrong, but you don't have to know why."

Like this one.

Don't do it.


Hi Ron,

1// I find this question.

In 2000 the lack coal reduced US energy production to 21 Billion Watts, nearly 25% less than those of the 1990 energy output.

a) less than those of the 1990 energy output
b) less than the 1990 energy output
c) less than 1990
d) fewer than 1990
e) fewer than that of US' 1990 energy output
OA is B

In 2000 the lack coal reduced US energy production to 21 Billion Watts, nearly 25% less than the 1990 energy output.
It seems that the OA of this question compares two things directly.

I am confused, please help!

2//
IMO, Only seven people this century have been killed by GWS, fewer than those have been killed by bee stings is wrong because fewer than is followed by a whole clause.

Can switching the phrase to fewer than those killed by bee stings makes the sentence right? (Here, killed by bee stings serves as a noun modifier).
PS: I know it is not better than OA,but I want to know whether it is grammatically wrong?and why?

3//
RonPurewal Wrote:
2. How about?
Three guys on the bb team are very tall, fewer than are on the soccer team.


the meaning of this sentence would be the following:
* there are three very tall guys on the basketball team
* more than three of the guys on the basketball team are also on the soccer team
that's the only proper interpretation of this wording, because the second half of the comparison is a verb ("... are on the soccer team"). that verb would have to be in parallel to the other verb, which is "are very tall" -- creating a comparison between (a) basketball players who are really tall and (b) basketball players who are on the soccer team.

this is probably not the meaning that you intend here, so this wording is incorrect.


I don't know why the meaning of the sentence would be the following:
* there are three very tall guys on the basketball team
* more than three of the guys on the basketball team are also on the soccer team

Since you said "the second half of the comparison is a verb ("... are on the soccer team"). that verb would have to be in parallel to the other verb, which is "are very tall"", the sentence without omission should be Three guys on the bb team are very tall, fewer than are very tall on the soccer team.
I think the sentence clearly express the meaning that soccer team has more tall guy than basketball team.

In addition, this sentence has the same structure as the OA of the question in this post. Why is the meaning screwed by the wording?

Please help!
Thanks
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Re: can somebody help me out with this question?

by RonPurewal Mon Oct 06, 2014 8:15 pm

soulwangh Wrote:1// I find this question.

In 2000 the lack coal reduced US energy production to 21 Billion Watts, nearly 25% less than those of the 1990 energy output.

a) less than those of the 1990 energy output
b) less than the 1990 energy output
c) less than 1990
d) fewer than 1990
e) fewer than that of US' 1990 energy output
OA is B

In 2000 the lack coal reduced US energy production to 21 Billion Watts, nearly 25% less than the 1990 energy output.
It seems that the OA of this question compares two things directly.


in my post, "things" is meant literally.
i.e., you can't say "people/things are less/fewer/more/greater than other people/things".

for numerical quantities, these constructions are perfectly ok.
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Re: can somebody help me out with this question?

by RonPurewal Mon Oct 06, 2014 8:18 pm

soulwangh Wrote:Can switching the phrase to fewer than those killed by bee stings makes the sentence right? (Here, killed by bee stings serves as a noun modifier).
PS: I know it is not better than OA,but I want to know whether it is grammatically wrong?and why?


• don't write your own answer choices.

• wrong, for the reason discussed in the post above (can't write that people/things are "fewer than" other people/things).
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Re: can somebody help me out with this question?

by RonPurewal Mon Oct 06, 2014 8:19 pm

even more importantly,

• don't judge comparison sentences individually!

comparison problems are "beauty contests".
if you're thinking about this problem in the right way, it should be perfectly straightforward.
i wrote about this here:
post108164.html#p108164
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Re: can somebody help me out with this question?

by RonPurewal Mon Oct 06, 2014 8:26 pm

soulwangh Wrote:
RonPurewal Wrote:
2. How about?
Three guys on the bb team are very tall, fewer than are on the soccer team.


the meaning of this sentence would be the following:
* there are three very tall guys on the basketball team
* more than three of the guys on the basketball team are also on the soccer team
that's the only proper interpretation of this wording, because the second half of the comparison is a verb ("... are on the soccer team"). that verb would have to be in parallel to the other verb, which is "are very tall" -- creating a comparison between (a) basketball players who are really tall and (b) basketball players who are on the soccer team.

this is probably not the meaning that you intend here, so this wording is incorrect.


I don't know why the meaning of the sentence would be the following:
* there are three very tall guys on the basketball team
* more than three of the guys on the basketball team are also on the soccer team

Since you said "the second half of the comparison is a verb ("... are on the soccer team"). that verb would have to be in parallel to the other verb, which is "are very tall"", the sentence without omission should be Three guys on the bb team are very tall, fewer than are very tall on the soccer team.
I think the sentence clearly express the meaning that soccer team has more tall guy than basketball team.


Nope. Let's use colorful language.

Only 7 people have been killed by the shark, fewer than have been killed by bee stings.

This is a comparison involving
people who have been killed by the shark
and
people who have been killed by bee stings



So...
If you have
Three guys on the bb team are very tall, fewer than are on the soccer team

then you have a comparison involving
guys on the team who are very tall
and
guys on the team who are on the soccer team


It seems you're trying to split up "...are on the soccer team". That can't be split up.
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Re: can somebody help me out with this question?

by soulwangh Wed Oct 08, 2014 4:38 am

RonPurewal Wrote:even more importantly,

• don't judge comparison sentences individually!

comparison problems are "beauty contests".
if you're thinking about this problem in the right way, it should be perfectly straightforward.
i wrote about this here:
post108164.html#p108164


Hi thanks for your brilliant answers!
Is it the same feeling like that of the question below?
http://www.manhattangmat.com/forums/gmat-question-a-recent-review-of-pay-scales-indicates-t1889.html?sid=662b06f27bbed9fa2dbcb44f08980239

A recent review of pay scales indicates that CEO’s now earn an average of 419 times more pay than blue-collar workers, compared to a ratio of 42 times in 1980.

A.that CEO’s now earn an average of 419 times more pay than blue-collar workers, compared to a ratio of 42 times
B.that, on average, CEO’s now earn 419 times the pay of blue-collar workers, a ratio that compares to 42 times
C.that, on average, CEO’s now earn 419 times the pay of blue-collar workers, as compared to 42 times their pay, the ratio
D.CEO’s who now earn on average 419 times more pay than blue-collar workers, as compared to 42 times their pay, the ratio
E.CEO’s now earning an average of 419 times the pay of blue-collar workers, compared to the ratio of 42 times
OA is C

I didn't know the grammatical usage of "times",but I picked up the correct answer by finding out it put the compared parts in a very symmetric and compacted way.
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Re: can somebody help me out with this question?

by RonPurewal Wed Oct 15, 2014 9:25 am

Yes, that's the idea.
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Re: can somebody help me out with this question?

by thanghnvn Wed Feb 11, 2015 12:37 am

a very strange problem form gmatprep. the point is what can we learn from this weird question. what gmat want to teach us here.

we can eliminate 4 wrong answers to go to the OA. but doing so is not enough for us to write a new sentence which contain a second part of comparison having no subject. we have to find a rule for the no-subject comparison.

normally, the subject of the second part of comparison can be inferred from the first part of comparison on basis of paralellism between two part of comparison. But, we can do so in this case

so, what is the rule for omitting the subject in the second half of comparison in this problem. ?? anyone can give me/us an example in which the second half of comparison has no subject.

Thank you very much.
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Re: can somebody help me out with this question?

by DiZ806 Sat Feb 28, 2015 8:52 am

Hi Ron,
I am really anxious about the grammer about "THAN"
My question:
When should we use "That or Those" after "than" to point the previous n.
For example:

[redacted]

Other analogy:
(1) In addition to having more protein than wheat does, rice has a protein of higher quality than that in wheat. Why Use "that" before "in wheat"
(2) Only seven people this century have been killed by the great white shark, the man-eater of the movies—fewer than killed by bee stings.
Why Use "Those"before "killed by bee sting" is wrong?
.....................
..............................................................
I am really really confused that when should I should use "that"or "those" and when should I do not
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Re: can somebody help me out with this question?

by RonPurewal Sun Mar 01, 2015 7:33 am

i had to kill the first example because it's an OG problem.

(1) In addition to having more protein than wheat does, rice has a protein of higher quality than that in wheat. Why Use "that" before "in wheat"


please search the forum for this problem.
if you find a thread on it, please post in that thread.
if you don't, then start a thread in the correct folder, containing all answer choices, with a citation of the source (all per the forum rules).

the answer choices are especially important here, because you don't need to know how to write these kinds of sentences.

you just need to know how to decide among the choices actually offered--a MUCH simpler and easier task.
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Re: can somebody help me out with this question?

by RonPurewal Sun Mar 01, 2015 7:34 am

(2) Only seven people this century have been killed by the great white shark, the man-eater of the movies—fewer than killed by bee stings.
Why Use "Those"before "killed by bee sting" is wrong?


this is a perfect example of what i'm describing above.

there are only two choices with "those", and both contain a VERY blatant error ("less" instead of "fewer"). so this is altogether a non-issue.
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Re: can somebody help me out with this question?

by RonPurewal Sun Mar 01, 2015 7:36 am

also, there's nothing wrong with "those" itself. (not everything in an incorrect answer is incorrect.)

the problems with those choices are (a) "less" and (b) the overall construction-- it's not permissible to write "these nouns are less/fewer than those nouns".

don't make this test harder than it needs to be! just think about deciding among the choices actually given-- since that's the only thing you'll actually have to do on test day.
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Re: can somebody help me out with this question?

by DiZ806 Sun Mar 01, 2015 8:22 am

RonPurewal Wrote:also, there's nothing wrong with "those" itself. (not everything in an incorrect answer is incorrect.)

the problems with those choices are (a) "less" and (b) the overall construction-- it's not permissible to write "these nouns are less/fewer than those nouns".

don't make this test harder than it needs to be! just think about deciding among the choices actually given-- since that's the only thing you'll actually have to do on test day.

I see Thanks for your suggestion!